The True face of the EU

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TSR George
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#1
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#1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEv_rUEFBMQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugX8NDYkqC0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RFS1vxB0_c

Still want to be in the EU?
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Choppie
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#2
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#2
How about the fact that we can go to university anywhere in the EU?

How about the travel around the EU we can quite happily do?

How about the ERASMUS scheme we can use for placement years?

How about the free trade we get from the EU?

How about the defence the EU gives this country?

How about the European Arrest Warrant to keep foreign criminals out?
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Kiytt
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#3
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#3
(Original post by Choppie)
How about the fact that we can go to university anywhere in the EU?

How about the travel around the EU we can quite happily do?

How about the ERASMUS scheme we can use for placement years?

How about the free trade we get from the EU?

How about the defence the EU gives this country?

How about the European Arrest Warrant to keep foreign criminals out?
We can still do all those things without being a part of the EU;

The only additional requirements are a passport and (in some cases) a visa.

Universities have their own schemes for placement years both inside and outside of the EU.

Free trade agreements.

Increasing defence spending to NATO's suggested amount of 2% of GDP.

Foreign criminals will be ineligible for a visa to enter the UK.

None of the things you stated outweigh the fact we are paying £50m daily to an undemocratic, political union that devises 75% of our laws, leaves us with no control over our borders and demands billions in EU budget bills every year.
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Choppie
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#4
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#4
(Original post by Kiytt)
We can still do all those things without being a part of the EU;

The only additional requirements are a passport and (in some cases) a visa.

Universities have their own schemes for placement years both inside and outside of the EU.

Free trade agreements.

Increasing defence spending to NATO's suggested amount of 2% of GDP.

Foreign criminals will be ineligible for a visa to enter the UK.

None of the things you stated outweigh the fact we are paying £50m daily to an undemocratic, political union that devises 75% of our laws, leaves us with no control over our borders and demands billions in EU budget bills every year.
"Dictates 75% of our laws" - To be completely honest, I think laws which 28 countries agree on are good laws.

"No control over our borders" - You make it sound as though immigration is an overall bad thing.

"Paying £50m daily" - Well, that is a number UKIP managed to pluck out of thin air in 2011. Even if it was to be true, this is most probably offset by the trade with EU countries, businesses residing in the UK and giving jobs in the UK for access to the EU market, and other private sector contributions as a direct result of the EU.
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Nice.Guy
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#5
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#5
(Original post by Choppie)
How about the fact that we can go to university anywhere in the EU?

How about the travel around the EU we can quite happily do?

How about the ERASMUS scheme we can use for placement years?

How about the free trade we get from the EU?

How about the defence the EU gives this country?

How about the European Arrest Warrant to keep foreign criminals out?
Your first 3 points suggest we cannot go to other countries if they're not in the EU? Might be slightly more checks involved, but you wouldn't be prevented from any of those things.

Free trade and EU membership are not mutually exclusive. Switzerland isn't in the EU yet can trade freely. Why shouldn't we do that?

Re: defence, we're part of NATO, so the EU seems pretty irrelevant

We could still work with EU countries when it comes to crime etc. - there's nothing to stop us from continuing to cooperate with them...

I'm honestly not trying to attack you here, or change your mind on stuff, I'm just trying to figure out if I'm missing something? I still can't understand what exactly EU membership is getting us...
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Kiytt
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#6
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#6
(Original post by Choppie)
"Dictates 75% of our laws" - To be completely honest, I think laws which 28 countries agree on are good laws.

"No control over our borders" - You make it sound as though immigration is an overall bad thing.

"Paying £50m daily" - Well, that is a number UKIP managed to pluck out of thin air in 2011. Even if it was to be true, this is most probably offset by the trade with EU countries, businesses residing in the UK and giving jobs in the UK for access to the EU market, and other private sector contributions as a direct result of the EU.
Well, that's subjective—why can't we devise our own, potentially better laws?

It's not about whether it's an "overall" bad thing. We want it to be an entirely good thing, both socially and economically. Being unable to discriminate between highly-skilled, wealthier and English-speaking people and lesser-skilled, poorer and non-English-speaking people has led to a greater proportion of the latter entering the UK, which other than providing low-skilled labour, contributes little to our economy. Why do you oppose having control, like we do for everywhere other than the EU?

Actually, as found here, our membership fee to the EU, i.e. gross contribution is £55m a day; counting what we get back, our net contribution is £22m—still, not entirely offset as you presume. Even without being in the UK, businesses would still be able to export to countries within the EU. Do you think they did not do this prior to our membership? Jobs won't be lost since they aren't dependent upon EU membership, and businesses are primarily attracted here due to our low corporation tax.
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Choppie
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#7
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#7
(Original post by Nice.Guy)
Your first 3 points suggest we cannot go to other countries if they're not in the EU? Might be slightly more checks involved, but you wouldn't be prevented from any of those things.

Free trade and EU membership are not mutually exclusive. Switzerland isn't in the EU yet can trade freely. Why shouldn't we do that?

Re: defence, we're part of NATO, so the EU seems pretty irrelevant

We could still work with EU countries when it comes to crime etc. - there's nothing to stop us from continuing to cooperate with them...

I'm honestly not trying to attack you here, or change your mind on stuff, I'm just trying to figure out if I'm missing something? I still can't understand what exactly EU membership is getting us...
What about the businesses which have set up in the UK specifically to enter the EU market? Think about the job and economic boost that can give the UK.

EU universities would be able to charge fees to UK students, as without membership of the EU, we'd become international students. We also wouldn't get the EU grant that students get to live in EU cities while at university.
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Nice.Guy
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#8
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#8
(Original post by Choppie)
What about the businesses which have set up in the UK specifically to enter the EU market? Think about the job and economic boost that can give the UK.

EU universities would be able to charge fees to UK students, as without membership of the EU, we'd become international students. We also wouldn't get the EU grant that students get to live in EU cities while at university.
They would still be able to trade unhindered with the EU provided we have a free trade deal in place (which is very possible - as I said, Switzerland have this deal)

OK, the relatively small number of UK students who wish to study in the EU wouldn't get free tuition. This is the only thing we're gaining from the EU?

(Original post by Choppie)
"No control over our borders" - You make it sound as though immigration is an overall bad thing.
.
By that logic, would you (out of interest) advocate opening up our borders to all non-EU countries? Why is it fair that the rest of the world don't have the same rights as EU members to come and live here? Genuine question.
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Reformed2010
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#9
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#9
I cannot even start to listen to Nigel when he as an directly elected MEP keeps claiming the EU undemocratically makes laws. He has opposed every democratic reforms ever proposed or implemented. Its got to the point where I don't bother explaining how the EU makes policy to the ignorant.
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Nice.Guy
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#10
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#10
(Original post by Reformed2010)
I cannot even start to listen to Nigel when he as an directly elected MEP keeps claiming the EU undemocratically makes laws. He has opposed every democratic reforms ever proposed or implemented. Its got to the point where I don't bother explaining how the EU makes policy to the ignorant.
What exactly's your point here? There's 750ish MEPs who can decide legislation that directly affects Britain - less than 10% of whom are British. So in effect, it is undemocratic, in that our own MEPs have little say in what happens to their own country.
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Reformed2010
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#11
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#11
(Original post by Nice.Guy)
Your first 3 points suggest we cannot go to other countries if they're not in the EU?
You seriously need to research the difficulties of going to the USA or Australia to work. Plus no, the EU has made it harder for Switzerland citizens to move to the EU to work or study because of its anti immigration referendum. I would rather have UK MEPs and the UK ministers sitting on the EU Council having voting power over such policies that impact my freedom to travel in my own damn continent.

(Original post by Nice.Guy)
Free trade and EU membership are not mutually exclusive. Switzerland isn't in the EU yet can trade freely. Why shouldn't we do that?
See above for example.

(Original post by Nice.Guy)
Re: defence, we're part of NATO, so the EU seems pretty irrelevant
Sorry this is largely dependable on your opinion on foreign policy. Some would argue the UK acting like the USA poodle under the NATO umbrella hasn't done us wonders and that a more EU approach to foreign affairs, less war and more diplomacy makes more long term sense.

(Original post by Nice.Guy)
We could still work with EU countries when it comes to crime etc. - there's nothing to stop us from continuing to cooperate with them...
Think about this.

Because its easier for 500 million people to have one parliament concentrating on the 28 leaders making European treaties and agreements, then have 28 different parliaments trying to write laws for their nation and Europe. Plus citizens have different opinions on local (Scotland/England/London/Wales/Northern Ireland) issues to national (UK/France/Germany/Spain etc) and regional (European Union). So you let people vote for each tier how they want.

Under the current system I can vote Liberal Democrats in the London assembly because I want Liberal democrats policy for my city London. But I may favour Labour policy for the UK. But, key difference to your system, I can vote Green at European elections if I think their policies are better for the EU. Under your system I would be stuck with Labour making laws and agreements with the rest of the EU. Despite me preferring Green policy to Europe.

Understand my point?
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Nice.Guy
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#12
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#12
(Original post by Reformed2010)
You seriously need to research the difficulties of going to the USA or Australia to work. Plus no, the EU has made it harder for Switzerland citizens to move to the EU to work or study because of its anti immigration referendum. I would rather have UK MEPs and the UK ministers sitting on the EU Council having voting power over such policies that impact my freedom to travel in my own damn continent.

I know them full well - Canada's another typical example - and I actually know quite a few people who've moved to and worked in Canada. Yes it's not a very simple process, why should it be? You're moving to live and study in another country! It is a fairly big thing to do, so I don't see why that type of system is so wrong.
Also you switched from 'work and study' to 'freedom to travel' which are two very different things; only work and study would be affected .


See above for example.

Sorry this is largely dependable on your opinion on foreign policy. Some would argue the UK acting like the USA poodle under the NATO umbrella hasn't done us wonders and that a more EU approach to foreign affairs, less war and more diplomacy makes more long term sense.

I'm saying that if military action were ever required, it would be NATO we'd work with more than the EU. Not that I'd ever wish that of course. But, again, I don't understand how less war and more diplomacy requires us to be in a legally binding contract. What's to stop us amicably working with other EU nations if we left the EU?

Think about this.

Because its easier for 500 million people to have one parliament concentrating on the 28 leaders making European treaties and agreements, then have 28 different parliaments trying to write laws for their nation and Europe. Plus citizens have different opinions on local (Scotland/England/London/Wales/Northern Ireland) issues to national (UK/France/Germany/Spain etc) and regional (European Union). So you let people vote for each tier how they want.

Under the current system I can vote Liberal Democrats in the London assembly because I want Liberal democrats policy for my city London. But I may favour Labour policy for the UK. But, key difference to your system, I can vote Green at European elections if I think their policies are better for the EU.

Under your system I would be stuck with Labour making laws and agreements with the rest of the EU. Despite me preferring Green policy to Europe. Understand my point?

That last point is very fair, I probably agree with you on that. It's not an argument I've heard before. But do you think that is worth £10 billion a year? When we've slashed our own public service funding by so much?
Answered in italics ^
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Davij038
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#13
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#13
Ah its on Russia Today. That's up there with Fox news as being the pinnacle of balanced respectable journalism. And of course, Farage and friends greatly admire mr Putin, whose so much better than those undemocratic EU Bullies...
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Davij038
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#14
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#14
There is actually an intelligent argument to be made against the EU (Notably by people who i respect but disagree with, notably Dan Hannan MEP)

And then theres people like you who clearly have no idea what they're talking about.

In any case, you lot give people that are pro EU like me an easy time because you tnedn to include stuff like liblabcon and cultural marxism in the absence of any rational argument.
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gladders
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#15
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#15
It's entirely possible to be pro-EU and anti-Clegg.

And Farage is right the EU is a joke, the EU is like what Hitler envisioned for a state of socialist nations.
How is it socialist? This is the EU that is negotiating the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, right? The one that people are claiming will allow companies to sue governments for violation of copyright law if something's not privatised?
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gladders
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#16
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#16
So now you're saying the EU isn't socialist?

Perhaps - shock horror - it has no ideology and is simply seeking to be pragmatic, like most governments?
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gladders
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#17
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#17
By accusing it of corporatism?
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gladders
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#18
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#18
Well, that's a good point. Why were you accusing the EU of being guilty of something our own country does?
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Good bloke
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#19
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#19
(Original post by Choppie)
EU universities would be able to charge fees to UK students.
They already can, and do.

How about the defence the EU gives this country?
The EU does nothing to defend the UK.
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Fullofsurprises
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#20
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#20
(Original post by Choppie)
"Dictates 75% of our laws" - To be completely honest, I think laws which 28 countries agree on are good laws.

"No control over our borders" - You make it sound as though immigration is an overall bad thing.

"Paying £50m daily" - Well, that is a number UKIP managed to pluck out of thin air in 2011. Even if it was to be true, this is most probably offset by the trade with EU countries, businesses residing in the UK and giving jobs in the UK for access to the EU market, and other private sector contributions as a direct result of the EU.
Net contribution last couple of years was around the £25m a day mark, less than half of the Farage claim.
https://fullfact.org/economy/cost_eu...ribution-30887

As usual, hype and myth are secured as fact in this area by the anti-EU bigots.
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