Debate: ''Power is the greatest propeller of civilization"

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flibber
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To what extent do you agree?
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BasicMistake
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When you say civilisation do you mean development and/or technological advancement? And by power are you only referring to military force or also global influence, politically and economically?
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flibber
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(Original post by BasicMistake)
When you say civilisation do you mean development and/or technological advancement? And by power are you only referring to military force or also global influence, politically and economically?
All of them along with the social factors of civilization. For example, when we think of Roman civilization, we think not only of the Roman military (legions and campaigns), architecture (Trajan's Column), literature (Ovid, Catullus, Virgil, Martial), influence/economy (Mediterranean trade), but also domestic life (the Roman gods and the gladiatorial fights).

Similarly with Greek civilization we think of the triremes, the Parthenon, Homer, Xenophon, Thucydides, Euclid, Hippocrates, Greek 'democracy', philosophical influence on the Islamic and European worlds (Aristotle, Plato etc.), and Greek mythology.
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william walker
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I believe a competition between two great powers is the way civilisation is improve. So Roman vs Carthage. Britain vs France. US vs USSR. I personally British civilisation what at its finest in the Georgian era when we were in a global struggle against France. Rather than the Victorian era when we were in the Pax.
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william walker
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NyLjeRBrqU
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BasicMistake
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(Original post by william walker)
I believe a competition between two great powers is the way civilisation is improve. So Roman vs Carthage. Britain vs France. US vs USSR. I personally British civilisation what at its finest in the Georgian era when we were in a global struggle against France. Rather than the Victorian era when we were in the Pax.
For possibly the first time, I agree with you. Humans are at their most productive when trying to kill or gain the upper hand on others. Looking at it from another perspective, people tend to try harder when faced with annihilation which is reminiscent of the Boserupian Theory except generalised and not limited to resource production.
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flibber
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(Original post by BasicMistake)
For possibly the first time, I agree with you. Humans are at their most productive when trying to kill or gain the upper hand on others. Looking at it from another perspective, people tend to try harder when faced with annihilation which is reminiscent of the Boserupian Theory except generalised and not limited to resource production.
Why did you two disagree in the past?
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william walker
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(Original post by BasicMistake)
For possibly the first time, I agree with you. Humans are at their most productive when trying to kill or gain the upper hand on others. Looking at it from another perspective, people tend to try harder when faced with annihilation which is reminiscent of the Boserupian Theory except generalised and not limited to resource production.
Yeah peace is boring, war is exciting.
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william walker
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(Original post by flibber)
Why did you two disagree in the past?
I am a Loyalist Reactionary High Tory of the Church of England. Also I am interested in strategic forecast and geopolitical strategy. Everybody disagrees with me.

I am sorry to say, I don't know who the other person is.
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BasicMistake
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(Original post by flibber)
Why did you two disagree in the past?
Mainly political ideas seeing as he is right-wing and I am predominantly left-wing. I recall a heated discussion over the defence budget. I won't go into specifics unless you want me to trawl through my past posts.
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BasicMistake
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(Original post by william walker)
I am a Loyalist Reactionary High Tory of the Church of England. Also I am interested in strategic forecast and geopolitical strategy. Everybody disagrees with me.

I am sorry to say, I don't know who the other person is.
Ah yes, I remember. You proposed having military classes starting from a young age, didn't you? Do you still support this?
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whorace
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(Original post by BasicMistake)
Ah yes, I remember. You proposed having military classes starting from a young age, didn't you? Do you still support this?
Lol what a nutjob. Even the 18th century would think he is backwards
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BasicMistake
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(Original post by whorace)
Lol what a nutjob. Even the 18th century would think he is backwards
Yes but at least what he has to say is vaguely interesting unlike the Ukip spammers who have recently invaded the Election forum. I have no squabble with Ukip, only with the fanatics who constantly insult me.
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william walker
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(Original post by BasicMistake)
Ah yes, I remember. You proposed having military classes starting from a young age, didn't you? Do you still support this?
No I don't think I have ever supported conscription or military classes. You must be thinking about someone else.
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william walker
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(Original post by whorace)
Lol what a nutjob. Even the 18th century would think he is backwards
No it wouldn't. I rather support the 1760's and the way Britain was then. At the high of its power.
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BasicMistake
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(Original post by william walker)
No I don't think I have ever supported conscription or military classes. You must be thinking about someone else.
You might remember from this:
You asked 'What kind of military would the British people want to have'
I answered that it would be pointless asking the public as they have no knowledge.
You replied that this can be resolved by educating the young on military matters.

Here is the link:
http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...445&highlight=
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william walker
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(Original post by BasicMistake)
You might remember from this:
You asked 'What kind of military would the British people want to have'
I answered that it would be pointless asking the public as they have no knowledge.
You replied that this can be resolved by educating the young on military matters.

Here is the link:
http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...445&highlight=
I didn't mean in school. I meant people who know something telling people about it.
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flibber
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(Original post by BasicMistake)
You might remember from this:
You asked 'What kind of military would the British people want to have'
I answered that it would be pointless asking the public as they have no knowledge.
You replied that this can be resolved by educating the young on military matters.

Here is the link:
http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...445&highlight=

(Original post by william walker)
I didn't mean in school. I meant people who know something telling people about it.
Both of you, please get back to topic and answer to what extent has power driven civilization?
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BasicMistake
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(Original post by flibber)
Both of you, please get back to topic and answer to what extent has power driven civilization?
Seeing as civilisation also drives power, which creates a multiplier effect, I would say that power drives civilisation to a great extent. However, a struggle for power has an even greater effect.
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LaMandarine
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When questions are so "simple" in their semantics I tend to brainstorm them. It's like I'm putting a whole bunch of random ingredients on my table and then I'm picking some that I can use for a recipe.

With that being said:

Power 1) is the greatest propeller of civilization 2)

1)Power: Nowadays so many entities (whether individuals, groups, states, organisations, etc.) in the International System can see themselves (or others) as being "powerful", but few could actually define what makes something or somebody powerful. Power can be perceived in so many forms. It can be ideational, ideological, military, economical, demographical, territorial, hegemonic, etc.
2) To propel= to push forward=(in a more figurative sense) to advance; Civilization can be defined as social/cultural/ intellectual advancement, hence why I see the two terms together as a pleonasm.

With regard to 2) I believe -for starters- states should be more concerned with becoming civilized themselves, and pay attention to what their citizens need, and not what they think (or more like claim) they need. I think the last concern of a poor and jobless citizen is to become a poor and jobless citizen* in a "powerful" state. I think his/ her main concern is being able to get a job first... you know, to be able to pay his/her rent and to form a family, to have good access to healthcare and education for his/her young and to even get to travel somewhere else every now and then.

Putting the words power and state together is like saying a 8 year old is an adult. A state -and everything and everyne that makes it- is a responsibility. You can't (atleast until now) have a state without people, and people have needs before they can give the state anything back in return.

*I'm not going to debate over what could make a citizen poor and jobless because by poor and jobless I don't mean lazy as much as unfortunate/unlucky
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