On to the EU referendum. Watch

william walker
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I have been totally disinterested in this election. It didn't matter. What matters now is the Conservative hold a referendum on EU membership and the people who seek to leave the EU win it.

I support UKIP for one reason to leave the EU, I have struggled to speak in favour of UKIP since the general election started because they moved to the left. I would rather UKIP now once again becomes a one issue party and puts all its effort into the referendum. Though UKIP's message has been diluted and it will be hard to bring the EU back as the major issue. This was a strategic mistake by UKIP.

I support the first past the post electoral system, I am opposed to the EU. So I count it as a disgrace the UKIP supported PR. When we leave the EU I would like to have a government and not a coalition. I really have nothing against the Conservative party, I just couldn't vote for it.

Labour are tanking massively which is great. SNP won a lot of seats, but it is meaningless. The DUP did well so I am happy about this.
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SaucissonSecCy
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(Original post by william walker)
I have been totally disinterested in this election. It didn't matter. What matters now is the Conservative hold a referendum on EU membership and the people who seek to leave the EU win it.

.
I don't like the EU, but you realise that the English people voting to leave it will kill the union stone dead? Scotland will definitely leave.
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william walker
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
I don't like the EU, but you realise that the English people voting to leave it will kill the union stone dead? Scotland will definitely leave.
The Union of the Crowns is all that matters to me. I expect the EU to break apart within the next 5 years. So we don't have to worry about the SNP attempting to force Scotland out the Parliamentary Union. Not everybody who voted SNP wants to leave the Parliamentary Union, they simply want more of a say and more power. They are stopped from this because the Conservatives have a majority. Also the Unionist parties in Ulster will support the Conservatives against the SNP and Labour. Plus the 1 UKIP mp.
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william walker
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(Original post by Dumachi)
WOnt happen anyway now, tories are lying.
We will see. If they don't hold to what they said we will have to go to the Monarchy and get it to do a referendum.
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SaucissonSecCy
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(Original post by william walker)
The Union of the Crowns is all that matters to me. I expect the EU to break apart within the next 5 years. So we don't have to worry about the SNP attempting to force Scotland out the Parliamentary Union. Not everybody who voted SNP wants to leave the Parliamentary Union, they simply want more of a say and more power. They are stopped from this because the Conservatives have a majority. Also the Unionist parties in Ulster will support the Conservatives against the SNP and Labour. Plus the 1 UKIP mp.
But then the SNP being blocked form more power will just result in a referendum and younger voters denyed last time voting to leave. Also Sinn Fein's momentum will be very tough for the unionists, as they will be spurred on by Scottish events.
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Endian Chief
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(Original post by william walker)
I have been totally disinterested in this election. It didn't matter. What matters now is the Conservative hold a referendum on EU membership and the people who seek to leave the EU win it.

I support UKIP for one reason to leave the EU, I have struggled to speak in favour of UKIP since the general election started because they moved to the left. I would rather UKIP now once again becomes a one issue party and puts all its effort into the referendum. Though UKIP's message has been diluted and it will be hard to bring the EU back as the major issue. This was a strategic mistake by UKIP.

I support the first past the post electoral system, I am opposed to the EU. So I count it as a disgrace the UKIP supported PR. When we leave the EU I would like to have a government and not a coalition. I really have nothing against the Conservative party, I just couldn't vote for it.

Labour are tanking massively which is great. SNP won a lot of seats, but it is meaningless. The DUP did well so I am happy about this.
Do you know what will happen if we leave the EU?
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william walker
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(Original post by Endian Chief)
Do you know what will happen if we leave the EU?
We will no longer have to abide by EU laws and regulations. No longer have to pay billions of pounds for a free trade zone which stops use from protecting our economy.
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william walker
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
But then the SNP being blocked form more power will just result in a referendum and younger voters denyed last time voting to leave. Also Sinn Fein's momentum will be very tough for the unionists, as they will be spurred on by Scottish events.
They have a bigger voting block so they have more power and more ability to get their message across. The Conservatives will also give the SNP things to keep their supporters in the Union until the EU breaks apart. Sinn Fein has lost seats, it doesn't gain at all from 56 SNP seats, the SNP isn't Sinn Fein.
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SaucissonSecCy
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(Original post by william walker)
They have a bigger voting block so they have more power and more ability to get their message across. The Conservatives will also give the SNP things to keep their supporters in the Union until the EU breaks apart. Sinn Fein has lost seats, it doesn't gain at all from 56 SNP seats, the SNP isn't Sinn Fein.
Of course the SNP isn't Sinn Fein, but it gains massively from SNP success!. As the the existing union becomes weaker, and indeed if Scotland leaves it, this would be a massive blow to Northern Irish unionism. In my opinion they would no longer be able to stop a united Ireland eventually if Scotland left.
And what makes you so confident we will leave the EU and other nations will? However bureaucratic and terrible it is, I don't understand how you can predict with such confidence nations leaving and it's dissolution.
There are huge entanglements, industries and countless jobs that depend on staying it, there could be short term economic chaos(thought I believe long term it is best for Britain for example) And finally, Cameron and his ilk have to placate and play to old school Tories in his party, and the electorate, by exaggerating their own Euroskepticism, by pretending not to be so sold on it as he is. He wil simply pretend or get a renegotiation, seel this as his own genius, the media will follow this line as they are pro Cameron and broadly pro-EU, and we will stay in. I bet you.

You should read the conservative columnist Peter Hitchens on this issue, he has Cameron to a tee over Europe. In fact I posted the article on my thread about the Tories and the media.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
I don't like the EU, but you realise that the English people voting to leave it will kill the union stone dead? Scotland will definitely leave.
Can you explain why?

We seem to be as equally euro sceptic as elsewhere in the UK.

it wasn't too long ago that the SNP wanted out of the EU.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Endian Chief)
Do you know what will happen if we leave the EU?
Democratic accountability in UK politics?
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SaucissonSecCy
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Can you explain why?

We seem to be as equally euro sceptic as elsewhere in the UK.

it wasn't too long ago that the SNP wanted out of the EU.
It'll be different when it's cast against an england moving to the right and themselves wanting to leave. It will change the Scots perception of it in addition to how attitudes change anyhow.

Sorry for the t ..yping, my browser went into a
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
It'll be different when it's cast against an england moving to the right and themselves wanting to leave. It will change the Scots perception of it in addition to how attitudes change anyhow.

Sorry for the t ..yping, my browser went into a
You seem to have fallen for the trap that all people in England want to leave the EU, all people in Scotland want to leave te EU, people in Northern Ireland and Wales have no opinion.

The SNP are pro EU because their politicians want in on the EU gravy train.

They lied to us about made up legal advice on automatic entry into the EU.

Some parts of Scotland are equally against the EU as some parts of the rest of the UK.

We're not as impacted as much by immigration north of the border so that may be one factor.

You seem to forget that Cameron promised a referendum on EU membership, salmond didn't.

Cameron has claimed to want to stay in the EU. I guess we'll see the SNP sharing. A platform with te conservatives. This'll be yet another example of the SNP supporting Tory policy.
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william walker
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
Of course the SNP isn't Sinn Fein, but it gains massively from SNP success!. As the the existing union becomes weaker, and indeed if Scotland leaves it, this would be a massive blow to Northern Irish unionism. In my opinion they would no longer be able to stop a united Ireland eventually if Scotland left.
And what makes you so confident we will leave the EU and other nations will? However bureaucratic and terrible it is, I don't understand how you can predict with such confidence nations leaving and it's dissolution.
There are huge entanglements, industries and countless jobs that depend on staying it, there could be short term economic chaos(thought I believe long term it is best for Britain for example) And finally, Cameron and his ilk have to placate and play to old school Tories in his party, and the electorate, by exaggerating their own Euroskepticism, by pretending not to be so sold on it as he is. He wil simply pretend or get a renegotiation, seel this as his own genius, the media will follow this line as they are pro Cameron and broadly pro-EU, and we will stay in. I bet you.

You should read the conservative columnist Peter Hitchens on this issue, he has Cameron to a tee over Europe. In fact I posted the article on my thread about the Tories and the media.
Just because the SNP is the largest party doesn't mean Scotland will leave the Union. It simply means people in Scotland don't feel they are getting enough out of the Union and want more. This could actually be exactly what Westminster needed to maintain the Parliamentary Union. In any case there is hundreds of thousands of Loyalists in Scotland, who would take up arms to maintain the Parliamentary Union. The SNP aren't a violent party and won't move in that direction as the Republicans did in Ireland. I also don't expect WW1 to happen again either.

I book by George Friedman called. Flashpoints the emerging crisis in Europe.

I can honestly say Peter Hitchens has changed my life. I have the up most respect for him and I do agree with him about Cameron. However Cameron is constrained and my act within his constraints. He promised an EU referendum and he must give it. Otherwise the Conservatives are finished.
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I am happy that we now have a conservative majority government, which (mainly due to ukip) has changed it's agenda towards the British people. And lets not forget no party is stupid, dave knows that there were over 4 million people who voted ukip, with nigel maybe gone, they are votes to grab. He knows to get those votes he has to offer a referendum and solve the immigration crisis.
You can argue all you like, but 13% of the vote share is going to be up for grabs, and the only way to get them is to be more like UKIP is (unless UKIP get a good leader such as farage again/evans/woolfe
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Good bloke
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
Sinn Fein's momentum will be very tough for the unionists
Is this the same Sinn Fein that just lost one of its five seats and which polled a reduced share of the overall NI vote, or am I confusing it with another party of the same name?
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Endian Chief
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(Original post by william walker)
We will no longer have to abide by EU laws and regulations. No longer have to pay billions of pounds for a free trade zone which stops use from protecting our economy.
Well I'll tell you the darker side of things.

The Economy will be left in ruins, we rely on a lot of imports and exports we make with the EU and other nations such as China. The EU is there to help and guide us, anyway get rid of the EU and thousands of people will be out of work and who knows? You could have another nationwide riot on your hands. Besides, many of the immigrants that come to this country work hard and contribute to its growth. Also, kiss goodbye to cheaper European holidays such as Benidorm and Paris, believe me it will be much harder to get into Europe even if its just for a holiday. Any friends or family you have in Europe? You'll be seeing them a lot less often. Just to finish off, our society will take a trip back in time 150 years, we'll be a racist and anti semitic society and our extremely negative reputation with the rest of the world will most definitely come back!
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Kiytt
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(Original post by Endian Chief)
Well I'll tell you the darker side of things.

The Economy will be left in ruins, we rely on a lot of imports and exports we make with the EU and other nations such as China. The EU is there to help and guide us, anyway get rid of the EU and thousands of people will be out of work and who knows? You could have another nationwide riot on your hands. Besides, many of the immigrants that come to this country work hard and contribute to its growth. Also, kiss goodbye to cheaper European holidays such as Benidorm and Paris, believe me it will be much harder to get into Europe even if its just for a holiday. Any friends or family you have in Europe? You'll be seeing them a lot less often. Just to finish off, our society will take a trip back in time 150 years, we'll be a racist and anti semitic society and our extremely negative reputation with the rest of the world will most definitely come back!
What a load of rubbish. You're regurgitating the same unsubstantiated, fear-driven "dark side" the media has brainwashed you into believing. And also, a lot of what you say has little to no explanation, to make matters worse.
  • "The Economy will be left in ruins"..."get rid of the EU and thousands of people will be out of work and who knows?"
I ask the same question, but you definitely seem farther from the answer than most.
Few jobs are dependent upon being a member of the EU, but are instead dependent upon being able to export to EU members; free trade agreements make this possible, and is also the reason why Switzerland and Norway haven't gone under. You don't explain why there'll be a sudden surge in unemployment—and the use of "thousands" suggests you're just plucking a figure range out of thin air and hoping it's somewhat true to reality.
  • "we rely on a lot of imports and exports we make with the EU and other nations such as China"
No figures at all for this? Alright, I'll tell you. About 50% of our exports are to the EU, and yes, whilst China is an importer of our goods, whether or not we leave the EU has no effect upon non-EU countries, so I don't know why you mentioned it.
  • "The EU is there to help and guide us"
That's a nice, sugar-coated way of saying "govern us". It'd be useful if you actually explained what you meant by "help" and "guide", since as far as I'm aware, they do most of our decision-making for us, so there's little room to "guide" us there—not to mention the multi-billion pound bills they demand we pay at the end of each year. So if they're not "helping" us financially, how are they?
  • "You could have another nationwide riot on your hands."
People would riot if we exited the EU after holding a democratic referendum? We've had riots over less I suppose, but I think that's largely exaggeration upon your part.
  • "many of the immigrants that come to this country work hard and contribute to its growth"
Okay, that's nice. But why "many", and not all? Surely we should only allow those who will contribute the most to our economy, i.e. highly-skilled, English-speaking, wealthy immigrants, who can supply higher-skilled labour in specialist jobs we are in shortage of, pay more tax and integrate better into society? No-one is denying that these types of immigrants work hard and contribute to our economy's growth, but with our current uncontrolled borders, there's no way of filtering out those who will simply claim welfare, not integrate well and provide low-skilled labour. If we can increase the proportion of the former, then we'll see an even bigger rise in our economic growth.
  • "kiss goodbye to cheaper European holidays such as Benidorm and Paris, believe me it will be much harder to get into Europe even if its just for a holiday"
The price of holidays are dependent on a wide range of factors—EU membership is not one of them. I'm not sure where you are getting these "facts" from; it doesn't seem unlikely that you're making it up as you go along.
It won't be "much harder" to get into Europe during the short term at all. Depending on the country, all you would need is your passport and potentially a tourism visa, but sometimes you don't even need that. To stay for the long-term, you would more than likely require a visa; however, that is a small price to pay for having control over our own borders.
  • "Any friends or family you have in Europe? You'll be seeing them a lot less often."
Same as above, except possibly a visitor visa is needed. It's country-specific.
  • "our society will take a trip back in time 150 years, we'll be a racist and anti semitic society and our extremely negative reputation with the rest of the world will most definitely come back!"
It's like you're reading directly off a Labour propaganda script. Correct me if I'm wrong, but have we ever not had an "extremely negative reputation with the rest of the world"? I think our involvement in Iraq courtesy of Tony Blair already revived that status for us less than 15 years ago, nevermind 150.
Your usage of buzzwords such as "racist" and "anti-semitic" make it clear you're a guillable consumer of biased left-wing media that never ceases to present the anti-EU stance in a negative light. It also makes it clear that you don't bother to do your own research and form your own opinion, but rather rely on the falsified statements of others to hop on the bandwagon with.

It's sad, really, because it makes it so easy for the media to manipulate the public image of almost anything when there are people like you who lap up their lies without hesitation.
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Endian Chief
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(Original post by Kiytt)
What a load of rubbish. You're regurgitating the same unsubstantiated, fear-driven "dark side" the media has brainwashed you into believing. And also, a lot of what you say has little to no explanation, to make matters worse.
  • "The Economy will be left in ruins"..."get rid of the EU and thousands of people will be out of work and who knows?"

I ask the same question, but you definitely seem farther from the answer than most.
Few jobs are dependent upon being a member of the EU, but are instead dependent upon being able to export to EU members; free trade agreements make this possible, and is also the reason why Switzerland and Norway haven't gone under. You don't explain why there'll be a sudden surge in unemployment—and the use of "thousands" suggests you're just plucking a figure range out of thin air and hoping it's somewhat true to reality.
  • "we rely on a lot of imports and exports we make with the EU and other nations such as China"

No figures at all for this? Alright, I'll tell you. About 50% of our exports are to the EU, and yes, whilst China is an importer of our goods, whether or not we leave the EU has no effect upon non-EU countries, so I don't know why you mentioned it.
  • "The EU is there to help and guide us"

That's a nice, sugar-coated way of saying "govern us". It'd be useful if you actually explained what you meant by "help" and "guide", since as far as I'm aware, they do most of our decision-making for us, so there's little room to "guide" us there—not to mention the multi-billion pound bills they demand we pay at the end of each year. So if they're not "helping" us financially, how are they?
  • "You could have another nationwide riot on your hands."

People would riot if we exited the EU after holding a democratic referendum? We've had riots over less I suppose, but I think that's largely exaggeration upon your part.
  • "many of the immigrants that come to this country work hard and contribute to its growth"

Okay, that's nice. But why "many", and not all? Surely we should only allow those who will contribute the most to our economy, i.e. highly-skilled, English-speaking, wealthy immigrants, who can supply higher-skilled labour in specialist jobs we are in shortage of, pay more tax and integrate better into society? No-one is denying that these types of immigrants work hard and contribute to our economy's growth, but with our current uncontrolled borders, there's no way of filtering out those who will simply claim welfare, not integrate well and provide low-skilled labour. If we can increase the proportion of the former, then we'll see an even bigger rise in our economic growth.
  • "kiss goodbye to cheaper European holidays such as Benidorm and Paris, believe me it will be much harder to get into Europe even if its just for a holiday"

The price of holidays are dependent on a wide range of factors—EU membership is not one of them. I'm not sure where you are getting these "facts" from; it doesn't seem unlikely that you're making it up as you go along.
It won't be "much harder" to get into Europe during the short term at all. Depending on the country, all you would need is your passport and potentially a tourism visa, but sometimes you don't even need that. To stay for the long-term, you would more than likely require a visa; however, that is a small price to pay for having control over our own borders.
  • "Any friends or family you have in Europe? You'll be seeing them a lot less often."

Same as above, except possibly a visitor visa is needed. It's country-specific.
  • "our society will take a trip back in time 150 years, we'll be a racist and anti semitic society and our extremely negative reputation with the rest of the world will most definitely come back!"

It's like you're reading directly off a Labour propaganda script. Correct me if I'm wrong, but have we ever not had an "extremely negative reputation with the rest of the world"? I think our involvement in Iraq courtesy of Tony Blair already revived that status for us less than 15 years ago, nevermind 150.
Your usage of buzzwords such as "racist" and "anti-semitic" make it clear you're a guillable consumer of biased left-wing media that never ceases to present the anti-EU stance in a negative light. It also makes it clear that you don't bother to do your own research and form your own opinion, but rather rely on the falsified statements of others to hop on the bandwagon with.

It's sad, really, because it makes it so easy for the media to manipulate the public image of almost anything when there are people like you who lap up their lies without hesitation.
So you're making me out to be some kind of massive bum licker is that it? Excuse me but I DO NOT support Labour, besides the message I'm trying to get across is you shouldn't jump the gun when voting for parties such as UKIP who haven't got much of a reputation as head of Government, as it could be a bit of a risk. My positives of UKIP: Taking us out of the EU would prevent us from sending billions over to Europe, and that could bring about more beneficial factors such as boosting the NHS.

One other thing: Get off of here and go to the Houses of Parliament, because blimey that was one huge backed up and clearly carefully analysed point of view!
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Kiytt
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(Original post by Endian Chief)
So you're making me out to be some kind of massive bum licker is that it? Excuse me but I DO NOT support Labour, besides the message I'm trying to get across is you shouldn't jump the gun when voting for parties such as UKIP who haven't got much of a reputation as head of Government, as it could be a bit of a risk. My positives of UKIP: Taking us out of the EU would prevent us from sending billions over to Europe, and that could bring about more beneficial factors such as boosting the NHS.

One other thing: Get off of here and go to the Houses of Parliament, because blimey that was one huge backed up and clearly carefully analysed point of view!
You know, by default my counter-argument always comes across rather abrasive and gives off the 'attacking' vibe—but when I do so and receive an acknowledging and civil response in return, I can't help but feel apologetic. Thanks for actually reading what I wrote instead of skim-reading and flinging ad hominems at me without hesitation.

That being said, you too have a point. UKIP are a relatively new party, and far less established than the two main parties. It's always a risk when a party has had no experience in power—but that goes hand-in-hand with a clean record, so it could be argued that there's less of a risk; on the contrary, people perceive the risk as less when re-electing a party that's previously been in power, even with a poor track record.

But I agree, you definitely shouldn't jump to conclusions from solely what you hear; do your own research and make an informed judgement, whether it be good or bad. Not everyone is going to agree, but don't let a higher power decide your opinion for you. And that's advice to everyone.
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