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    I think Amber Rudd will do a good job.
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    I'm looking forwards to the future, and this isn't the future where the Tories are out of government in 5 years, it's one where people see their preconceptions are all wrong and we see another strong couple of decades under the conservatives! Half a century of conservative control if you count Blair and to a lesser extent brown

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    (Original post by royal1990)
    Seen as it is a talking point all over the media in the UK right now....what do you all think?

    I have a preconceived notion as to how many may react...though, content on here always surprises me.

    Personally, for me, I am utterly disappointed. I've always been very anti-tory, which may be because I live in the "north" or perhaps just because my family have never really supported them, and additionally, they've never really represented what I would call the working classes.

    If I'm honest, it has upset me, probably more deeply than it should, and although I shouldn't condone or empathise with the rioters in London, I kind of do. I guess, it all boils down to the sheer compassion people have for each other (particularly among the poorer/vulnerable), under a nasty, cruel Conservative gov.

    To me, those people that rioted in London were people that were desperate, and really didn't want a Tory majority (due to many reasons), and I'm guessing they didn't vote Tory either. Nor did I. I actually voted Green, even though that party doesn't best align with my views.

    As far as I am concerned, it was about voting for the best of a bad bunch.

    I just find it ridiculous that the Conservatives want to scrap the Human Rights Act, and do all these insane things just to have their own way, and secure their position as the elite governing few. Its' almost like bullying,- 'lets remove the HRA so that when those poor peasants do complain they don't have the provisions of the Human Rights Act to fall back on".

    Not to mention 'deep' cuts to the welfare system that are extremely harsh. Yes of course, there are benefits 'scroungers' in this country, like many others. But of course there are genuine claimants. These genuine and vulnerable portions of our population will be swept up and brushed under the rug and left with no finance for much needed medications, support for healthcare, and in some cases permanent incapacity funds, and ultimately will be left to rot away.

    I understand the tories believe in austerity-- but this is beyond stupid!

    I truly feel sorry for our society. I really really do. This isn't democracy-- this spits in the face of it all. People on social media have been ranting (particularly pro-conservatives), saying "well you dont like democracy [in its current system] leave the country". Personally don't see why I or anybody else should.

    All these breaking headlines and news articles about what the Tories have in store for the nation, are frightening me- genuinely.

    What are your thoughts??
    The Green party would have done far more damage to the working class than the Conservative party will. Good luck getting a job in a zero-growth permanent recession economy with punitive taxes. Good luck affording electricity bills driven up by massive subsidies of renewable energy. Good luck using public services overstretched by zero border controls on immigration.

    And those protesting are self-righteous morons who are wasting their time by protesting after the election has already taken place. The Conservative party has a mandate. No rioting is going to change that. The argument that the result is undemocratic is nonsense. If Miliband had one there would have been no complaints, just like there were no complaints when Labour and Blair won in 2005 with 35% of the vote. If people wanted a different system they should have voted in favour of the 2011 AV referendum but we rejected that.
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    (Original post by Inazuma)
    Why do people have this idiotic misconception that leaving the HRA means we will have no rights?

    It's a silly idea; but that's only because it will be replaced with an almost identical document that will be used in an almost identical way (since we'll remain under ECHR and thus will still be judged by EctHR).

    It's pretty much pointless; save for appealing to eurosceptics, but conversely has somehow allowed this daft and damaging idea that OP presented.
    On this topic then, how do you justify using Human Rights as a PR stunt?

    "It will have no effect, except to artificially gain support whilst not doing anything." is not an excuse.
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    (Original post by lerjj)
    On this topic then, how do you justify using Human Rights as a PR stunt?

    "It will have no effect, except to artificially gain support whilst not doing anything." is not an excuse.
    I said I think it's silly?
    I don't believe it will have enough bearing to truly affect EctHR decisions in the way they intend to outweigh the cons of going through the process of changing it.

    My point was that it's idiotic to think it will leave people with no rights, as is the false idea going around. A quick google shows that's false so I can only assume it's scaremongering the uninformed which is completely unfair.
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    (Original post by Inazuma)
    I said I think it's silly?
    I don't believe it will have enough bearing to truly affect EctHR decisions in the way they intend to outweigh the cons of going through the process of changing it.

    My point was that it's idiotic to think it will leave people with no rights, as is the false idea going around. A quick google shows that's false so I can only assume it's scaremongering the uninformed which is completely unfair.
    Of course it's silly, but do you think politicians should be making decisions on a whim when the only purpose whatsoever is as a power play or a suck up to some sectors of society? More to the point, it just ingrains the status quo as it's going to harden anti-Tories even more that currently.

    To be honest, yes it's unimportant. But they're the ones trying to make it sound impressive, so shouldn't they answer for why they're trying to enact changes to the foundations of our laws with no good reason other than no reason not to? If you expect it to do nothing, don't do it.
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    (Original post by lerjj)
    Of course it's silly, but do you think politicians should be making decisions on a whim when the only purpose whatsoever is as a power play or a suck up to some sectors of society? More to the point, it just ingrains the status quo as it's going to harden anti-Tories even more that currently.

    To be honest, yes it's unimportant. But they're the ones trying to make it sound impressive, so shouldn't they answer for why they're trying to enact changes to the foundations of our laws with no good reason other than no reason not to? If you expect it to do nothing, don't do it.
    Well I'd imagine many do believe it will genuinely have benefit in making it more specific or whatever they will eventually come out with. I can see where they are coming from in regards to the interesting use of the HRA at times, I just don't think the problem is the HRA itself, it's the people who use it.
    Clearly some believe changing the HRA will solve those other problems and it's important enough to do so. it's hard to tell how much is for show and how much is genuine belief that it's worth it

    That's another reason I disliked their move on student fees. Moved to a cheaper, better loan system and yet all the public image was just that they were more expensive. And likely to achieve less revenue and return anyway.
    I'm not sure why they make these moves without properly explaining them first at least.
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    Must just how unpopular Labour are.

    I dislike both parties but I would prefer Tory over Labour IF if it wasn't the fact they're full of rubbish and feed us empty promises on issues like immigration and the EU.

    They never bring change which must mean someone or some people have huge influence and don't allow it to happen.

    Democracy please?
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    (Original post by royal1990)
    I shouldn't condone or empathise with the rioters in London, I kind of do.

    To me, those people that rioted in London were people that were desperate, and really didn't want a Tory majority (due to many reasons),
    The rioters in London were thugs. If all they wanted to do was have an anti-austerity protest then why the need for violence? Those "desperate" people did graffiti on the war memorial which was extremely disrespectful. What makes you empathise for people who have nothing better to do but cause damage?
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    (Original post by Inazuma)
    That's another reason I disliked their move on student fees. Moved to a cheaper, better loan system and yet all the public image was just that they were more expensive. And likely to achieve less revenue and return anyway.
    I'm not sure why they make these moves without properly explaining them first at least.
    Only 'cheaper' if you don't get a job. I don't see why 9k (or 12k) is meant to be cheaper than 3k just because I can now in principle waste 20 years of my life in order to get out of paying it.

    That's not a better system. It's a system that punishes those who do well, and then fails to actually get any money. I'm not sure how that fits the Conservative motto? I mean, raising uni fees from 3k to 9k (to 12k) doesn't really hurt the poor who weren't paying the 3k in the first place, doesn't benefit the rich in anyway - the people affected are hard working lower middle class kids. The people unaffected? Less hard working lower middle class kids (N.B. this isn't exactly my views, but the Tory line is usually that people who earn more are 'hard working' so I guess you'll buy it). The tuition fee raise doesn't get money and specifically hits hard working middle class families. It hits almost no one else, which seems odd seeing as those are the people voting for Conservatives. The only reasoning I can think of is that the Conservatives feel like they shouldn't bother with young people.

    Tl;dr Tuition fee raises predictably hit lower middle class young people the worst- almost everyone else is missed. The Tories claim to want to help 'hard working middle class families', which is weird because the system they set up punishes you if and only if you get a good job after university.
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    Disgusted in one word.

    We are now ruled by a bunch of ministerial colleagues that know nothing.
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    (Original post by lerjj)
    Only 'cheaper' if you don't get a job. I don't see why 9k (or 12k) is meant to be cheaper than 3k just because I can now in principle waste 20 years of my life in order to get out of paying it.

    That's not a better system. It's a system that punishes those who do well, and then fails to actually get any money. I'm not sure how that fits the Conservative motto? I mean, raising uni fees from 3k to 9k (to 12k) doesn't really hurt the poor who weren't paying the 3k in the first place, doesn't benefit the rich in anyway - the people affected are hard working lower middle class kids. The people unaffected? Less hard working lower middle class kids (N.B. this isn't exactly my views, but the Tory line is usually that people who earn more are 'hard working' so I guess you'll buy it). The tuition fee raise doesn't get money and specifically hits hard working middle class families. It hits almost no one else, which seems odd seeing as those are the people voting for Conservatives. The only reasoning I can think of is that the Conservatives feel like they shouldn't bother with young people.

    Tl;dr Tuition fee raises predictably hit lower middle class young people the worst- almost everyone else is missed. The Tories claim to want to help 'hard working middle class families', which is weird because the system they set up punishes you if and only if you get a good job after university.
    No, since the threshold for paying it back was raised, the various rates are lower than before and it's still wiped after X years.

    Can I question how you mean it affects middle class the most? I agree the loan system itself hits them the most what with no allowances as to family but no grants; but otherwise I'm not sure how exactly you mean the raise affects them. Principally that would still be the same situation for them. Sadly I don't think any party has suggested reforming those issues over how loans/grants are allocated, but unless I'm missing something that's not exclusive to the raise since that only affects long after.
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    (Original post by royal1990)
    Seen as it is a talking point all over the media in the UK right now....what do you all think?

    I have a preconceived notion as to how many may react...though, content on here always surprises me.

    Personally, for me, I am utterly disappointed. I've always been very anti-tory, which may be because I live in the "north" or perhaps just because my family have never really supported them, and additionally, they've never really represented what I would call the working classes.

    If I'm honest, it has upset me, probably more deeply than it should, and although I shouldn't condone or empathise with the rioters in London, I kind of do. I guess, it all boils down to the sheer compassion people have for each other (particularly among the poorer/vulnerable), under a nasty, cruel Conservative gov.

    To me, those people that rioted in London were people that were desperate, and really didn't want a Tory majority (due to many reasons), and I'm guessing they didn't vote Tory either. Nor did I. I actually voted Green, even though that party doesn't best align with my views.

    As far as I am concerned, it was about voting for the best of a bad bunch.

    I just find it ridiculous that the Conservatives want to scrap the Human Rights Act, and do all these insane things just to have their own way, and secure their position as the elite governing few. Its' almost like bullying,- 'lets remove the HRA so that when those poor peasants do complain they don't have the provisions of the Human Rights Act to fall back on".

    Not to mention 'deep' cuts to the welfare system that are extremely harsh. Yes of course, there are benefits 'scroungers' in this country, like many others. But of course there are genuine claimants. These genuine and vulnerable portions of our population will be swept up and brushed under the rug and left with no finance for much needed medications, support for healthcare, and in some cases permanent incapacity funds, and ultimately will be left to rot away.

    I understand the tories believe in austerity-- but this is beyond stupid!

    I truly feel sorry for our society. I really really do. This isn't democracy-- this spits in the face of it all. People on social media have been ranting (particularly pro-conservatives), saying "well you dont like democracy [in its current system] leave the country". Personally don't see why I or anybody else should.

    All these breaking headlines and news articles about what the Tories have in store for the nation, are frightening me- genuinely.

    What are your thoughts??
    You should have voted labor is you wanted the tories out..
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    (Original post by RebeLion)
    Must just how unpopular Labour are.

    I dislike both parties but I would prefer Tory over Labour IF if it wasn't the fact they're full of rubbish and feed us empty promises on issues like immigration and the EU.

    They never bring change which must mean someone or some people have huge influence and don't allow it to happen.

    Democracy please?
    And the Conservatives brought change???
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    Better than Labour that's for sure.
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    (Original post by royal1990)
    Seen as it is a talking point all over the media in the UK right now....what do you all think?

    I have a preconceived notion as to how many may react...though, content on here always surprises me.

    Personally, for me, I am utterly disappointed. I've always been very anti-tory, which may be because I live in the "north" or perhaps just because my family have never really supported them, and additionally, they've never really represented what I would call the working classes.

    If I'm honest, it has upset me, probably more deeply than it should, and although I shouldn't condone or empathise with the rioters in London, I kind of do. I guess, it all boils down to the sheer compassion people have for each other (particularly among the poorer/vulnerable), under a nasty, cruel Conservative gov.

    To me, those people that rioted in London were people that were desperate, and really didn't want a Tory majority (due to many reasons), and I'm guessing they didn't vote Tory either. Nor did I. I actually voted Green, even though that party doesn't best align with my views.

    As far as I am concerned, it was about voting for the best of a bad bunch.

    I just find it ridiculous that the Conservatives want to scrap the Human Rights Act, and do all these insane things just to have their own way, and secure their position as the elite governing few. Its' almost like bullying,- 'lets remove the HRA so that when those poor peasants do complain they don't have the provisions of the Human Rights Act to fall back on".

    Not to mention 'deep' cuts to the welfare system that are extremely harsh. Yes of course, there are benefits 'scroungers' in this country, like many others. But of course there are genuine claimants. These genuine and vulnerable portions of our population will be swept up and brushed under the rug and left with no finance for much needed medications, support for healthcare, and in some cases permanent incapacity funds, and ultimately will be left to rot away.

    I understand the tories believe in austerity-- but this is beyond stupid!

    I truly feel sorry for our society. I really really do. This isn't democracy-- this spits in the face of it all. People on social media have been ranting (particularly pro-conservatives), saying "well you dont like democracy [in its current system] leave the country". Personally don't see why I or anybody else should.

    All these breaking headlines and news articles about what the Tories have in store for the nation, are frightening me- genuinely.

    What are your thoughts??
    I suspect most of anybody's reaction to this depends on the information they have or consider important, and their degree of altruism.

    For example, so far as I can see the main supposed differences between Labour and Tories is that Labour supports spending more on social issues, while the Tories seem more interested in making sure that the bills get paid.

    While I like the idea of lots of extra money to spend on welfare and so on, the fact is that that money doesn't exist. Last year the government had to borrow about £3,000 per taxpayer just to pay the current bills, by the time the previous Labour government had finished, it was about £5,000 per year per taxpayer. This adds each year to about £40,000-to £50,000 of debt per taxpayer which the government already has. It's only a matter of time until people are no longer prepared to lend such huge sums of money almost for free. There is a real world out there and it can't be ignored for ever.
    Labour policy is to ignore this. Tory policy is to feel uncomfortable about it and to get the debts under control before spending more. Which is more sensible?
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    (Original post by Inazuma)
    No, since the threshold for paying it back was raised, the various rates are lower than before and it's still wiped after X years.

    Can I question how you mean it affects middle class the most? I agree the loan system itself hits them the most what with no allowances as to family but no grants; but otherwise I'm not sure how exactly you mean the raise affects them. Principally that would still be the same situation for them. Sadly I don't think any party has suggested reforming those issues over how loans/grants are allocated, but unless I'm missing something that's not exclusive to the raise since that only affects long after.
    Because it's the middle classes who are paying it back?

    Here's the scenarios:

    Upper class - Pays 27k. They have that to spare.
    Upper middle class Pays 27k, again, they might actually have somewhere to pull 27k out of a hat from. They might not though, so some people are going to go from being upper class to having 40+K of debt and no way of paying it back. But it's fine, because when they're 41 we'll give them their life back,
    Lower middle class- Pays 27k, is now 27k in debt. By the time they come out of Uni, they're 40+K in debt. Now, if they miraculously get a good job, then they can start to pay off that lovely mountain of debt. If they don't (skivers! Burn them!) then... they pay marginally higher taxes effectively, and continue to have the same career track and lifestyle once their debt is written off after 20 years.
    Me- I want to study a four year course, so that's a 36K loan, which plus maintenance is too much to think about. Plus four years interest in which I can't make any real money because I'm studying. Now, yes I can in theory just go unemployed and homeless until I'm 42 and never pay a penny, but 46grand is an awful lot of money to have on your back.

    What's your plan? I genuinely can't see a sensible career path in which having to start with that much debt is a good thing. The only viable solution is to not pay back all of it because you don't earn enough, or to be super rich. This necessarily kills off anyone aspiring to earn a decent amount (not everyone can be super rich obviously).
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    (Original post by lerjj)
    Because it's the middle classes who are paying it back?

    Here's the scenarios:

    Upper class - Pays 27k. They have that to spare.
    Upper middle class Pays 27k, again, they might actually have somewhere to pull 27k out of a hat from. They might not though, so some people are going to go from being upper class to having 40+K of debt and no way of paying it back. But it's fine, because when they're 41 we'll give them their life back,
    Lower middle class- Pays 27k, is now 27k in debt. By the time they come out of Uni, they're 40+K in debt. Now, if they miraculously get a good job, then they can start to pay off that lovely mountain of debt. If they don't (skivers! Burn them!) then... they pay marginally higher taxes effectively, and continue to have the same career track and lifestyle once their debt is written off after 20 years.
    Me- I want to study a four year course, so that's a 36K loan, which plus maintenance is too much to think about. Plus four years interest in which I can't make any real money because I'm studying. Now, yes I can in theory just go unemployed and homeless until I'm 42 and never pay a penny, but 46grand is an awful lot of money to have on your back.

    What's your plan? I genuinely can't see a sensible career path in which having to start with that much debt is a good thing. The only viable solution is to not pay back all of it because you don't earn enough, or to be super rich. This necessarily kills off anyone aspiring to earn a decent amount (not everyone can be super rich obviously).
    Bad news. You're already starting off your career with around £50,000 of national debt as well.
    However, it's a bit disappointing to find that you don't think you'd be able to do well enough to pay the bills you'd already have run up by the end of university. Obviously, large scale dishonouring of debts by graduated students is a pretty depressing thought. Apparently, nearly a half of students never pay back their debts, which implies that half of university students never reach the average wage. Surely there's something terribly wrong there?
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    (Original post by T.L)
    Bad news. You're already starting off your career with around £50,000 of national debt as well.
    However, it's a bit disappointing to find that you don't think you'd be able to do well enough to pay the bills you'd already have run up by the end of university. Obviously, large scale dishonouring of debts by graduated students is a pretty depressing thought. Apparently, nearly a half of students never pay back their debts, which implies that half of university students never reach the average wage. Surely there's something terribly wrong there?
    "Half of students are below average salary" - unsurprising fact.

    Do you happen to know a site with the brackets for paying off your student loan? Also, national debt isn't actually your debt. I'm also not talking about taxes here.

    Here's my thought process in summary: 36K for tuition, 10K for four years accommo, that amounts to 52K debt after four years of study assuming I can get hold of money for you, know, food and clothing. So great, I have 52K worth of debt.

    http://www.thecompleteuniversityguid...arting-salary/

    Most recent figures I can find suggest a 24K starting salary. I don't have a clue about the payoff brackets as I said, so I can't do the calculation, but I'd strongly suggest that starting life with over two years salary worth of debt is a very s**t position to be in. I'm clearly not a special case, I'm assuming this is pretty much representative of what every lower middle class person is feeling. Upper middle might not be feeling the squeeze as much, working class... I literally don't know.

    12K fees come out at a lovely 65K of debt. I'm not going to go into the morally dubious things I'd do if someone offered me 65K. I'm certainly not going into the morally dubious things I'd do to someone who I felt as responsible for taking 65K of my (non existent) money.
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    (Original post by T.L)
    Labour policy is to ignore this. Tory policy is to feel uncomfortable about it and to get the debts under control before spending more. Which is more sensible?
    This isn't true. Both party's policies were clearly aimed at decreasing the deficit. The difference is that the Tory's (who promised to be finished a year ago) promised to be done in a year whilst Labour said they'd be done by the end of their term. Why the longer recovery? Because the various ideas floated by Tory HQ to cut the deficit include raising the bedroom tax, raising tuition fees to 12K and scrapping mandatory maternity leave for women.

    Can people stop with the blatant hyperbole? No political party WANTS economic instability, meltdown, crisis etc. Additionally, no political party is capable of stopping that from happening (see 2008, when Conservative spending was the SAME as Labour spending anyway. But who gets flak for the global recession?) Additionally, I hope, the Tory's don't actively hate young people or the disabled. They just don't realise what a 200% tuition fee raise means, or what the bedroom tax does. And then, once they've done it, they wilfully don't realise what those do. Because the only thing that loses more face than hypocrisy is probably murder (invading a country doesn't qualify either). Anyway, </rant>, whenever I hear someone say "The Tory's hate xyz" or "Labour doesn't know how to run an economy", I just blank out that statement.
 
 
 
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