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Election fallout continues - People's Republic of Brighton established Watch

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    (Original post by The_Mighty_Bush)
    Can you please be objective for just a little bit? No one can be blamed for Detroit more than the politicians and unions who bankrupted and over-regulated their economy until everyone and everything productive left.

    Capitalism didn't "ravage" Detroit. It was actually one of the richest cities in the world and booming due to Capitalism. It was left-wing politics that ravaged it.
    Lol, do you seriously think that the motor industry in Detroit collapsed because of a leftish local council? :rolleyes: How about the global trend towards bulk production being moved to Asia for a starter? Or do you think the dominance of the Japanese, Korean and China-based mass production industries is something to do with socialism? Or not? It's hard to keep up. :confused:
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    One of the many things I admire about her is how well she's handled the job of being the party's only MP, she is consistently good-hearted but firm with interviewers, she makes excellent, well researched and well argued points, she doesn't pick fights with the big parties but holds her own and she uses clever tactics to make herself known.

    She's really a model of how to be an MP from an insurgency.
    Before the election she was riding around town on a bicycle made for two and a megaphone :yep:
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    Has anyone here seen the Lego Movie? just sayin', Lord Business and his gang are a replica of David Cameron and the Tories. Security Cameras in everyone's houses and on every street so they can watch you and they force everyone to follow a strict set of rules and ban people from saying anything bad about them. So pretty much David Cameron's plans for the UK right?
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Lol, do you seriously think that the motor industry in Detroit collapsed because of a leftish local council? :rolleyes: How about the global trend towards bulk production being moved to Asia for a starter? Or do you think the dominance of the Japanese, Korean and China-based mass production industries is something to do with socialism? Or not? It's hard to keep up. :confused:
    Well obviously globalisation played a big part in this for most motor industries in the West. However with Detroit we can actually see the collapse of the motor industry well before the emergence of these other competing economies. One of the major problems in Detroit was that the unions made the cost of production far too high in Detroit and it wasn't long before the industry was completely mutilated by the process of "white flight" and capital flight. A result of the growth in taxes, envious politics and a growth in crime that the expensive left-wing state couldn't deal with.
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    (Original post by The_Mighty_Bush)
    Well obviously globalisation played a big part in this for most motor industries in the West. However with Detroit we can actually see the collapse of the motor industry well before the emergence of these other competing economies. One of the major problems in Detroit was that the unions made the cost of production far too high in Detroit and it wasn't long before the industry was completely mutilated by the process of "white flight" and capital flight. A result of the growth in taxes, envious politics and a growth in crime that the expensive left-wing state couldn't deal with.
    It's a complex picture in reality, but the driving force was US capitalism moving industry to Japan in the decades after the 50s - partly this was due to the fact that Japan had a clean slate from which to start, a skilled and cheap workforce (with very strong unions by the way) and US manufacturing and management expertise to design their industries, processes and working methods. Then there was the usual protectionism and dumping and all that followed on.

    Even if you are right (and there are limits to your argument) that high wages drove industry elsewhere, that isn't much of an argument. Are you advocating that all working people should have low wages? The result would be a low demand economy with extreme poverty and social chaos. What you call 'socialism' appears to encompass sensible economic policies designed to keep demand up and working people having decent incomes. The fact that in the past, or currently, some countries have very low wages is hardly a good reason to abandon intelligent economies. They need to be pressured to lift their wages and adopt humane policies.

    Anyway, the world is now generally rebalancing and wages are rising across Asia, but your implication that all human values must be ditched in the pursuit of denying workers a decent wage is evil.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    It's a complex picture in reality, but the driving force was US capitalism moving industry to Japan in the decades after the 50s - partly this was due to the fact that Japan had a clean slate from which to start, a skilled and cheap workforce (with very strong unions by the way) and US manufacturing and management expertise to design their industries, processes and working methods. Then there was the usual protectionism and dumping and all that followed on.

    Even if you are right (and there are limits to your argument) that high wages drove industry elsewhere, that isn't much of an argument. Are you advocating that all working people should have low wages? The result would be a low demand economy with extreme poverty and social chaos. What you call 'socialism' appears to encompass sensible economic policies designed to keep demand up and working people having decent incomes. The fact that in the past, or currently, some countries have very low wages is hardly a good reason to abandon intelligent economies. They need to be pressured to lift their wages and adopt humane policies.

    Anyway, the world is now generally rebalancing and wages are rising across Asia, but your implication that all human values must be ditched in the pursuit of denying workers a decent wage is evil.
    No, I'm not saying workers should have poor wages. I want workers to have good wages. What I am saying is that over-regulation, trade union protectionism, high taxes, envious policies that make the rich and productive leave, etc. all taken together, will end in disaster as it has done for Detroit and actually results in great poverty, not wealth.
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    (Original post by The_Mighty_Bush)
    No, I'm not saying workers should have poor wages. I want workers to have good wages. What I am saying is that over-regulation, trade union protectionism, high taxes, envious policies that make the rich and productive leave, etc. all taken together, will end in disaster as it has done for Detroit and actually results in great poverty, not wealth.
    It's the usual right wing mantra - the unions screwed us - whereas the reality is that one law for capital and another for labour means that in practise, big international capitalist companies can move their operations without considering the human cost and lay waste to entire regions or countries. Not that too much ridigity is a good thing either, but if the right spent half the time analysing the flaws in capitalism that they do harassing organised labour, the economies of the developed countries might be considerably stronger than they are.
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    I wonder what is going on in the mind of most Tory voters.

    1. Shoot the wounded!
    2. Bring back slavery!
    3. Slash welfare to the bone!

    And when we come home from work point and laugh at all the poor people on Benefits Street.
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    (Original post by illegaltobepoor)
    I wonder what is going on in the mind of most Tory voters.

    1. Shoot the wounded!
    2. Bring back slavery!
    3. Slash welfare to the bone!

    And when we come home from work point and laugh at all the poor people on Benefits Street.
    On the return to slavery thing, I always remember an interview I saw about five years ago with Digby Jones, a classic pro-market laissez-faire-ist, who was temporarily affiliated (very loosely!) to Blair and in the past has been a key player in the British Chamber of Commerce and Institute of Directors. He was talking on one of those Andrew Neil shows, I think it was Daily Politics. They got into China and he was extolling the virtues of the Chinese economy and how much the UK should change to be like it. "Hang on a minute", says Neil, "they have massive labour camps, internal passports, no unions and forced labour!". Jones smirked and said "that's what I mean" jokingly, but something about the way he said it showed he meant it.

    That's always the aim of the key players in big capital - drive down wages to zero.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    On the return to slavery thing, I always remember an interview I saw about five years ago with Digby Jones, a classic pro-market laissez-faire-ist, who was temporarily affiliated (very loosely!) to Blair and in the past has been a key player in the British Chamber of Commerce and Institute of Directors. He was talking on one of those Andrew Neil shows, I think it was Daily Politics. They got into China and he was extolling the virtues of the Chinese economy and how much the UK should change to be like it. "Hang on a minute", says Neil, "they have massive labour camps, internal passports, no unions and forced labour!". Jones smirked and said "that's what I mean" jokingly, but something about the way he said it showed he meant it.

    That's always the aim of the key players in big capital - drive down wages to zero.
    What if workers in a free market minimal state economy decide they want to block together to increase their bargaining power? Why do right wing libertarians hate unions os much? They believe in minimal state except when it comes to stopping workers organizing. Then the state can do whatever it wants to break them up.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    What if workers in a free market minimal state economy decide they want to block together to increase their bargaining power? Why do right wing libertarians hate unions os much? They believe in minimal state except when it comes to stopping workers organizing. Then the state can do whatever it wants to break them up.
    Right wing libertarians seem to be all too authoritarian when it suits them. Take the current government, who are planning to gerrymander seats out of existence, want an end to the rights of elected Scottish MPs to vote, apparently desire an end to the independent state broadcaster (despite recruiting most of their spin doctors from it) and repeatedly threatened it with post-election reprisals during the election if it did not actively support their plans. The BBC responded by harping on endlessly about the non-existent threat of the Labour/SNP pact which lost Labour the election.
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...abour-election
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Right wing libertarians seem to be all too authoritarian when it suits them. Take the current government, who are planning to gerrymander seats out of existence, want an end to the rights of elected Scottish MPs to vote, apparently desire an end to the independent state broadcaster (despite recruiting most of their spin doctors from it) and repeatedly threatened it with post-election reprisals during the election if it did not actively support their plans. The BBC responded by harping on endlessly about the non-existent threat of the Labour/SNP pact which lost Labour the election.
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...abour-election
    Surely Pinochet is an example of authoritarian "libertarians", force a country to take the shape of a "free" market? By force :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Right wing libertarians seem to be all too authoritarian when it suits them. Take the current government, who are planning to gerrymander seats out of existence, want an end to the rights of elected Scottish MPs to vote, apparently desire an end to the independent state broadcaster (despite recruiting most of their spin doctors from it) and repeatedly threatened it with post-election reprisals during the election if it did not actively support their plans. The BBC responded by harping on endlessly about the non-existent threat of the Labour/SNP pact which lost Labour the election.
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...abour-election
    Why should Scottish MPs be able to vote on English laws, when English MPs cannot vote on those things in Scotland?
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    (Original post by Puddles the Monkey)
    Before the election she was riding around town on a bicycle made for two and a megaphone :yep:
    :rofl:
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    One of the many things I admire about her is how well she's handled the job of being the party's only MP, she is consistently good-hearted but firm with interviewers, she makes excellent, well researched and well argued points, she doesn't pick fights with the big parties but holds her own and she uses clever tactics to make herself known.

    She's really a model of how to be an MP from an insurgency.
    i agree - have you read her book about parliamentary reform (Honourable Friends?) ?
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    (Original post by Josh_Dickson)
    i agree - have you read her book about parliamentary reform (Honourable Friends?) ?
    It has pride of place on my Kindle. :smug:
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    It has pride of place on my Kindle. :smug:
    :yucky:
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    Will Worthing accept any refugees from the People's Republic of Brighton and Hove? Or will Burgess Hill be over-run? We should be told.
 
 
 
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