Were Enoch Powell and/or Oswald Mosley right?

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strongpar
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#1
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#1
Question in the title. Do you think they were right? Entirely or partly or not at all.

I do not mean to hurt any feelings or stir up trouble, I would just like a discussion on these two men.

My opinion is as follows :

Perhaps if Mosley had come to power, Britain could have allied with Germany. I expect that Anglo-German Europe would not be the pit of despair that Europe is today.

Perhaps if we had listened to Powell instead of laughing at him, Britain would not be deteriorating by the day.

Both were great men who cared about their country far more than any politician today. Particularly Powell, who made the greatest speech I have ever read. His opinions on immigration aside, I'm sure most would agree that he was a man wise beyond his years, who had an incredible way with words.

Excerpt from his speech on Hola Camp :

It has been said -- and it is a fact -- that these 11 men were the lowest of the low; subhuman was the word which one of my honorable Friends used. So be it. But that cannot be relevant to the acceptance of responsibility for their death . . . In general, I would say that it is a fearful doctrine, which must recoil upon the heads of those who pronounce it, to stand in judgement on a fellow human being and to say, "Because he was such-and-such, therefore the consequences which would otherwise flow from his death shall not flow."Nor can we ourselves pick and choose where and in what parts of the world we shall use this or that kind of standard. We cannot say, "We will have African standards in Africa, Asian standards in Asia and perhaps British standards here at home." We have not that choice to make. We must be consistent with ourselves everywhere.
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Quady
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#2
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#2
No, they were left wingers.
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Observatory
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#3
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#3
I don't see what the two have in common. Moseley was a socialist, then a fascist, then a pan-European. Powell was an arch-Conservative. Moseley was interned during WWII as a security risk. Powell voluntarily returned from New Zealand to enlist as a private and left as a brigadier. Moseley believed in pretty much every idea Powell despised at some point in his life.
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strongpar
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#4
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#4
(Original post by Observatory)
I don't see what the two have in common. Moseley was a socialist, then a fascist, then a pan-European. Powell was an arch-Conservative. Moseley was interned during WWII as a security risk. Powell voluntarily returned from New Zealand to enlist as a private and left as a brigadier. Moseley believed in pretty much every idea Powell despised at some point in his life.
They don't have much in common except for one important thing. They were not the same as other politicians of their time. They wanted change, and neither got it.
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Observatory
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#5
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#5
(Original post by strongpar)
They don't have much in common except for one important thing. They were not the same as other politicians of their time. They wanted change, and neither got it.
I could agree that Powell was a semi-independent figure. A really independent figure couldn't have gone into politics at all, but Powell was intelligent enough that he could be semi-independent and still survive.

Moseley however was a very mainstream figure before he left to found his New Party, having been both a Tory MP and a Labour minister. He embodied pretty much every fashionable and wrong idea of the 1920s and 1930s.
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MatureStudent36
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#6
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#6
(Original post by strongpar)
They don't have much in common except for one important thing. They were not the same as other politicians of their time. They wanted change, and neither got it.
Disagree. Mosley wanted a change to fascism. If anything Powell wanted no change.

Either way you're trying to show horn two politicians together who are like chalk and cheese.
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Maker
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#7
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#7
(Original post by strongpar)
Question in the title. Do you think they were right? Entirely or partly or not at all.

I do not mean to hurt any feelings or stir up trouble, I would just like a discussion on these two men.

My opinion is as follows :

Perhaps if Mosley had come to power, Britain could have allied with Germany. I expect that Anglo-German Europe would not be the pit of despair that Europe is today.

Perhaps if we had listened to Powell instead of laughing at him, Britain would not be deteriorating by the day.

Both were great men who cared about their country far more than any politician today. Particularly Powell, who made the greatest speech I have ever read. His opinions on immigration aside, I'm sure most would agree that he was a man wise beyond his years, who had an incredible way with words.

Excerpt from his speech on Hola Camp :

It has been said -- and it is a fact -- that these 11 men were the lowest of the low; subhuman was the word which one of my honorable Friends used. So be it. But that cannot be relevant to the acceptance of responsibility for their death . . . In general, I would say that it is a fearful doctrine, which must recoil upon the heads of those who pronounce it, to stand in judgement on a fellow human being and to say, "Because he was such-and-such, therefore the consequences which would otherwise flow from his death shall not flow."Nor can we ourselves pick and choose where and in what parts of the world we shall use this or that kind of standard. We cannot say, "We will have African standards in Africa, Asian standards in Asia and perhaps British standards here at home." We have not that choice to make. We must be consistent with ourselves everywhere.
Tripe
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strongpar
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#8
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#8
(Original post by Maker)
Tripe
Care to explain why?
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The_Mighty_Bush
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#9
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#9
Powell was a good man and right about many things.

Moseley was a fascist, socialist and wanted a European super-state. I can't think of many people with consistently worse ideas than that.
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Maker
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#10
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#10
(Original post by strongpar)
Care to explain why?
Moseley was an idiot, Hitler would have used him as a puppet and Britain would just be a province of Greater Germany. I expect you would have been sent to a concentration camp assuming your parents have not been exterminated to make room for ethnic Germans.

The Soviets used to have useful idiots in the West who would promote the USSR and defend them. You sound like a useless idiot and any Nazi would just have you shot and dumped by the roadside for foxes to chew up.
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strongpar
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#11
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#11
(Original post by Maker)
Moseley was an idiot, Hitler would have used him as a puppet and Britain would just be a province of Greater Germany. I expect you would have been sent to a concentration camp assuming your parents have not been exterminated to make room for ethnic Germans.

The Soviets used to have useful idiots in the West who would promote the USSR and defend them. You sound like a useless idiot and any Nazi would just have you shot and dumped by the roadside for foxes to chew up.
You say these things as if they're certain. Your head needs deflating.
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HigherMinion
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#12
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#12


For those who don't know enough about Powell, other than his Rivers of Blood speech. Great man: astounding intellect and he worked for the people, not for himself.
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Arkasia
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#13
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#13
Powell was strikingly similar to Farage.
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Maker
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#14
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#14
(Original post by strongpar)
You say these things as if they're certain. Your head needs deflating.
I know history, you know nothing.
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strongpar
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#15
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#15
(Original post by Maker)
I know history, you know nothing.
You've done an excellent job of proving my point. Your head really does need deflating.
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Maker
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#16
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#16
(Original post by strongpar)
You've done an excellent job of proving my point. Your head really does need deflating.
You need to think before you make posts, oops, sorry you can't.
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MatureStudent36
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#17
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#17
(Original post by Arkasia)
Powell was strikingly similar to Farage.
How so?

One was a democratically elected MP who has been described as the best PM the UK never had.

The others name is Nigel.
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Arkasia
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#18
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#18
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
How so?

One was a democratically elected MP who has been described as the best PM the UK never had.

The others name is Nigel.
Both Conservative in nature, particularly with the economy (views, not the party)
Both express some views on immigration and nationalism (not to mention the views on Europe - EEC and EU)
Both express distrust of the 'establishment'
Both misrepresented as racist bigots
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MatureStudent36
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#19
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#19
(Original post by Arkasia)
Both Conservative in nature, particularly with the economy (views, not the party)
Both express some views on immigration and nationalism (not to mention the views on Europe - EEC and EU)
Both express distrust of the 'establishment'
Both misrepresented as racist bigots
Powell promoted ground breaking exonomic policies. Farge hasn't.

Michael foot was against th EEC.
Again. Chalk and cheese.
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The Dictator
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#20
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#20
Mosley took more inspiration from Mussolini than Hitler. He strongly disliked Hitler, though his wife admired him.

In any case, he was a pseudo-intellectual and a demagogue who would have ruined our country. I did used to agree with his economic policies though.
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