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When should the next EU referendum be (after the 2017 one)...?
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MagicNMedicine
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#1
How long should it be before the EU question is put to the British people again?
As we have seen in Scotland, the 2014 referendum hasn't closed the debate but there is likely to be strong push in the next 5 to 10 years for another referendum.
I expect if we had a similar result in the EU referendum (eg 55% in, 45% out) we would have a similar push from Eurosceptics for another referendum. But what about if it goes the other way....how long till there is next a referendum on reapplying to join the EU?
Or is it the case with both Scotland leaving the UK and UK leaving the EU that if there is a No vote, there have to be repeated referendums until it's Yes, but once it is a Yes, then that result is final?
As we have seen in Scotland, the 2014 referendum hasn't closed the debate but there is likely to be strong push in the next 5 to 10 years for another referendum.
I expect if we had a similar result in the EU referendum (eg 55% in, 45% out) we would have a similar push from Eurosceptics for another referendum. But what about if it goes the other way....how long till there is next a referendum on reapplying to join the EU?
Or is it the case with both Scotland leaving the UK and UK leaving the EU that if there is a No vote, there have to be repeated referendums until it's Yes, but once it is a Yes, then that result is final?
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Davij038
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#2
Pretty much exactly my main point against referendums in general. The Idea that certain eurosceptics are going to accept defeat is laughable- I would have far more respect for UKIP if it plainly stated that it would leave the EU instead of a farcical referendum (Probably phrased: "Do you think Britain should be in an evil dictatorship?"). You know they wouldnt accept any result when they said that young people shouldn't get the vote because theyve been brainwashed by pro eu propoganda (If that was the case, it should have featured more in the ukip manifesto...but then it would have shown even more that ukip is a crackpot tinfoiul party that likes sitting next to neo nazis and Putin sympathisers.
I think the idea of the Conservative referendum is to basically blackmail the EU into giving Cameron what he wants. Cameron and most of the party want to be in a reformed EU, so its a risky strategy but could well pay off.
I think the idea of the Conservative referendum is to basically blackmail the EU into giving Cameron what he wants. Cameron and most of the party want to be in a reformed EU, so its a risky strategy but could well pay off.
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MagicNMedicine
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#3
Yeah thats true - UKIP will complain that the vote was rigged, they allowed Irish/Commonwealth citizens to vote who shouldn't have, the Westminster elite and business community had too much of a financial advantage, also remember UKIP wanted the question to be "do you believe that the UK should be a sovereign and independent country" whereas the actual question is likely to be something like "should the UK leave the EU" so they will complain it wasn't a fair question etc.
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democracyforum
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Mackay
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#5
This ****ing country. Jesus Christ. You can't keep calling referendums until you get the decision you want.
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Observatory
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#6
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#6
(Original post by MagicNMedicine)
I expect if we had a similar result in the EU referendum (eg 55% in, 45% out) we would have a similar push from Eurosceptics for another referendum. But what about if it goes the other way....how long till there is next a referendum on reapplying to join the EU?
Or is it the case with both Scotland leaving the UK and UK leaving the EU that if there is a No vote, there have to be repeated referendums until it's Yes, but once it is a Yes, then that result is final?
I expect if we had a similar result in the EU referendum (eg 55% in, 45% out) we would have a similar push from Eurosceptics for another referendum. But what about if it goes the other way....how long till there is next a referendum on reapplying to join the EU?
Or is it the case with both Scotland leaving the UK and UK leaving the EU that if there is a No vote, there have to be repeated referendums until it's Yes, but once it is a Yes, then that result is final?
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Observatory
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#7
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#7
(Original post by Davij038)
Pretty much exactly my main point against referendums in general. The Idea that certain eurosceptics are going to accept defeat is laughable- I would have far more respect for UKIP if it plainly stated that it would leave the EU instead of a farcical referendum (Probably phrased: "Do you think Britain should be in an evil dictatorship?"). You know they wouldnt accept any result when they said that young people shouldn't get the vote because theyve been brainwashed by pro eu propoganda (If that was the case, it should have featured more in the ukip manifesto...but then it would have shown even more that ukip is a crackpot tinfoiul party that likes sitting next to neo nazis and Putin sympathisers.
Pretty much exactly my main point against referendums in general. The Idea that certain eurosceptics are going to accept defeat is laughable- I would have far more respect for UKIP if it plainly stated that it would leave the EU instead of a farcical referendum (Probably phrased: "Do you think Britain should be in an evil dictatorship?"). You know they wouldnt accept any result when they said that young people shouldn't get the vote because theyve been brainwashed by pro eu propoganda (If that was the case, it should have featured more in the ukip manifesto...but then it would have shown even more that ukip is a crackpot tinfoiul party that likes sitting next to neo nazis and Putin sympathisers.
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Rakas21
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#8
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#8
Hopefully not anytime soon. Representative democracy has served us well before and it should do again, join the Tories and vote for a Euro-skeptic leader and then vote to leave by voting for the party.
That said, Albania and Turkey joining would be enough for me.
That said, Albania and Turkey joining would be enough for me.
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Rakas21
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#9
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#9
(Original post by Observatory)
To be fair, the eligibility criteria this time are much fairer than in the Scottish referendum. It is perverse to allow foreigners to vote on the constitution of the country and 16 and 17 year olds cannot ordinarily vote in any election. In the Scottish referendum Westminster essentially let Salmond jerrymander the vote so that he couldn't complain that the vote had been jerrymandered against him when he lost. Now that the polling gap is narrower, there might be pressure for any second Scottish referendum to follow the eligibility criteria of the EU referendum.
To be fair, the eligibility criteria this time are much fairer than in the Scottish referendum. It is perverse to allow foreigners to vote on the constitution of the country and 16 and 17 year olds cannot ordinarily vote in any election. In the Scottish referendum Westminster essentially let Salmond jerrymander the vote so that he couldn't complain that the vote had been jerrymandered against him when he lost. Now that the polling gap is narrower, there might be pressure for any second Scottish referendum to follow the eligibility criteria of the EU referendum.
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balkanlad
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#10
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#10
We will vote to leave anyway. It wont be because of the likes of Farage either. It will because of articulate Conservatives like Dan Hannan arguing a solid economic and political case for leaving. Farage will just continue on with the immigration argument but most people have already made their minds up on that.
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ChaoticButterfly
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#11
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#11
(Original post by Mackay)
This ****ing country. Jesus Christ. You can't keep calling referendums until you get the decision you want.
This ****ing country. Jesus Christ. You can't keep calling referendums until you get the decision you want.
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Davij038
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#12
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#12
(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
They did it in Ireland. People said no. EU/Ireland pro EU elites didn't like it, had another referendum and basically scare mongered the Irish to vote yes next time. That turned out to be a resounding success. You can keep calling referendums when it goes against what powerful interests want apparently.
They did it in Ireland. People said no. EU/Ireland pro EU elites didn't like it, had another referendum and basically scare mongered the Irish to vote yes next time. That turned out to be a resounding success. You can keep calling referendums when it goes against what powerful interests want apparently.
I reiterate, if you want to leave the EU, do so! Lets not eff about with a referendum where no sides going to be happy. I read on ConservativeHome that they were scared that the pro eu buisness lobby was going to outspend them, which is a bit rich coming from a conservative politician if you ask me.
I think the referendums seems to be getting conducted fairly under the rules- I dont support eu migrants getting the vote and whilst i'm personally in favour of 16 year olds getting the vote i'm not overly bothered by them not being able to this time.
A decisive EU win will hopefully be the deathblow to hard euroscepticism in the conservative party where a few dissenters can slouch off to UKIP.
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Davij038
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#13
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#13
(Original post by democracyforum)
when there is a transfer of powers
and when
albania and turkey join
when there is a transfer of powers
and when
albania and turkey join
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SHallowvale
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#14
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#14
(Original post by Observatory)
It is perverse to allow foreigners to vote on the constitution of the country and 16 and 17 year olds cannot ordinarily vote in any election.
It is perverse to allow foreigners to vote on the constitution of the country and 16 and 17 year olds cannot ordinarily vote in any election.
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Observatory
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#15
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#15
(Original post by SHallowvale)
For what reason should foreign people (I assume you mean non-UK born people) not be allowed to vote in an EU referendum?
For what reason should foreign people (I assume you mean non-UK born people) not be allowed to vote in an EU referendum?
The EU referendum concerns the constitution of a country that is not their own.
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ottom
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#16
After the 1975 referendum the issue didn't really reach the centre stage again until the late 1980s.
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Helloworld_95
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meenu89
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Jammy Duel
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#19
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#19
I think comparison to Scotland is inappropriate, the people in favour of having the EU tend to me be more mature than the SNP and are much more likely to script the results and not throw their toys out of the pram. Regardless, when there is the demand from the public, scratch that, government backbenchers for one.
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scrotgrot
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#20
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#20
(Original post by Observatory)
To be fair, the eligibility criteria this time are much fairer than in the Scottish referendum. It is perverse to allow foreigners to vote on the constitution of the country and 16 and 17 year olds cannot ordinarily vote in any election. In the Scottish referendum Westminster essentially let Salmond jerrymander the vote so that he couldn't complain that the vote had been jerrymandered against him when he lost. Now that the polling gap is narrower, there might be pressure for any second Scottish referendum to follow the eligibility criteria of the EU referendum.
To be fair, the eligibility criteria this time are much fairer than in the Scottish referendum. It is perverse to allow foreigners to vote on the constitution of the country and 16 and 17 year olds cannot ordinarily vote in any election. In the Scottish referendum Westminster essentially let Salmond jerrymander the vote so that he couldn't complain that the vote had been jerrymandered against him when he lost. Now that the polling gap is narrower, there might be pressure for any second Scottish referendum to follow the eligibility criteria of the EU referendum.
As for precedent, it would be nice if someone in the media could dig up what electoral roll Blair planned to use for the cancelled European Constitution Treaty referendum. If it was the more inclusive electoral roll, and particularly if there was agreement on this in parliament, in my view the argument to use the less inclusive electoral roll is almost totally discredited by dispassionate precedent as well as by basic logic (not quantities the Tory Eurosceptics are well known for respecting, it has to be said...)
And talking of gerrymandering, how about this ridiculous politically motivated restriction on British expats voting if they've been abroad for more than fifteen years?
It's either jus soli (in which case yes to EU residents, no to British expats) or jus sanguinis (yes to expats, no to EU residents). Citizenship is absolute, it has to be or it might as well not exist at all; we might as well tear up all British passports and give even native citizens an immigration status subject to unilateral government provisions dictating their access to democracy, the labour market, public services.
Does anyone know if there in fact any basis other than Conservative Party diktat for the fifteen-year limit?
I would be appealing to Irish (870,000), Cypriot (80,000) and Maltese (30,000) residents, who are on the UK general electoral roll, to help save us from ourselves by voting in. Their votes would represent about 2% of the registered electorate and replace all the votes of students and young people gerrymandered out by the change to individual voter registration.
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