Creationism Watch

TheIrrational
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Hello, I myself am an atheist who does not believe in creationism.

I recently watched a program made by Penn an Teller - "Bulls**t", and they had an episode about creationism. In the US they have a fair number of people who believe creationism should be taught in school as a science (and in fact is in certain areas - my cousin learns about it in science class in Georgia) and they all claim they have enough scientific evidence for it to be taught at science, but none of them mentioned what this evidence was.

I'm interested in knowing if anyone can supply me with evidence - I will NOT argue with any evidence provided as I do not wish to tell people here that they are wrong for believing what they do, I'm purely interested.

Thanks in advance.
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TheWiseSalmon
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It doesn't exist so you'll be waiting a long time.
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TheIrrational
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(Original post by TheWiseSalmon)
It doesn't exist so you'll be waiting a long time.
I have the same opinion, but obviously some people don't. So I'm just wondering what they class as scientific evidence, obviously I will almost certainly disagree with it, but that doesn't matter to me, I'd just like to know.
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TheWiseSalmon
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(Original post by TheIrrational)
I have the same opinion, but obviously some people don't. So I'm just wondering what they class as scientific evidence, obviously I will almost certainly disagree with it, but that doesn't matter to me, I'd just like to know.
I've argued with Creationists quite a few times and not once has one even bothered to try offering up some evidence.
They love to point out "flaws" in evolution (most of which aren't actually flaws, but instead just illustrations of their total lack of understanding of science) with their logic being "if I can show that evolution isn't true, then Creationism must be true by default", which of course is simply untrue.

The closest I've seen to evidence is the argument from incredulity "look at how complicated life is! It's so complex that it must have had a designer!"
In fact, the whole of Creationism is based on arguments from incredulity... that and the Bible (which anyone with half a brain knows isn't reliable evidence of anything)
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AdamCee
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God bless 'Murica ay...

Bit unrelated, but teaching creationism in schools was recently banned in the UK wasn't it?
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TheIrrational
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(Original post by TheWiseSalmon)
I've argued with Creationists quite a few times and not once has one even bothered to try offering up some evidence.
They love to point out "flaws" in evolution (most of which aren't actually flaws, but instead just illustrations of their total lack of understanding of science) with their logic being "if I can show that evolution isn't true, then Creationism must be true by default", which of course is simply untrue.

The closest I've seen to evidence is the argument from incredulity "look at how complicated life is! It's so complex that it must have had a designer!"
In fact, the whole of Creationism is based on arguments from incredulity... that and the Bible (which anyone with half a brain knows isn't reliable evidence of anything)
This is my experience too - it's the whole evolution is wrong because "x" therefore creationism must be correct rubbish. Obviously it can't be argued against, but I just want to hear what is considered to be scientific evidence.

Arguing with a creationist is impossible, there was a BBC news article yesterday about a creationist who found a 60 million year old fossil which had great implications for knowing what happened after the meteor which wiped out the dinosaurs hit. Yet despite this he still claimed his believe that the world is 6000 years old was unshaken...

(Original post by AdamCee)
God bless 'Murica ay...

Bit unrelated, but teaching creationism in schools was recently banned in the UK wasn't it?
I actually have no problem with it being taught in school, but in a religion class where it's taught under the idea that "some people believe". When it enters into a science class I see a problem with it..
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AdamCee
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(Original post by TheIrrational)
I actually have no problem with it being taught in school, but in a religion class where it's taught under the idea that "some people believe". When it enters into a science class I see a problem with it..
Sorry yeah I missed a bit - I think they banned the teaching of it in science lessons. I'm not entirely sure about RE but I'd imagine that's still allowed
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Racoon
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(Original post by TheIrrational)
Hello, I myself am an atheist who does not believe in creationism.

I recently watched a program made by Penn an Teller - "Bulls**t", and they had an episode about creationism. In the US they have a fair number of people who believe creationism should be taught in school as a science (and in fact is in certain areas - my cousin learns about it in science class in Georgia) and they all claim they have enough scientific evidence for it to be taught at science, but none of them mentioned what this evidence was.

I'm interested in knowing if anyone can supply me with evidence - I will NOT argue with any evidence provided as I do not wish to tell people here that they are wrong for believing what they do, I'm purely interested.

Thanks in advance.
For me the coin is on the other foot. Teaching evolution as a fact is misleading. It is not 100% a certainty, if it were then everyone would be an atheist.

There are plenty of' ifs' and 'perhaps' in the evolution process, ie 'If this happened' and so on, and a lot is down to stretching the imagination. You only have to listen to someone like Professor Brian Cox to realise with every question raised it opens up another 20 or so unanswered ones.

Faith in God is like stepping through a portal, once you have gone through that stage of unbelief to a realisation of who God is then you view things in a totally different light.

I appreciate your OP's tone. There is usually a lot of scoffing at people who believe in God as being the creator of all, a superiority and an assumption that all people of faith who believe in God and the biblical story of creation are mindless dimwits , which of course we are not (not all anyway).
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TheWiseSalmon
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(Original post by Racoon)
For me the coin is on the other foot. Teaching evolution as a fact is misleading. It is not 100% a certainty, if it were then everyone would be an atheist.
Incorrect. Evolution and faith aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. I personally don't understand why anyone feels the need to believe in a god who guided evolution, but evidently people do. There is overwhelming support for evolution in many branches of Christianity such as The Anglicans and even the Roman Catholics.

There are plenty of' ifs' and 'perhaps' in the evolution process, ie 'If this happened' and so on, and a lot is down to stretching the imagination. You only have to listen to someone like Professor Brian Cox to realise with every question raised it opens up another 20 or so unanswered ones.
That's the nature of all science. Should we ban the teaching of science?
The fact of the matter is that evolution is one of the best supported theories in all of science. It has stood resolute for 150 years and the entirety of Biology is based upon it. Nothing in Biology makes sense without it. Year upon year the work of countless scientists does nothing but to make it more and more clear than evolution by natural selection is the correct
Yes, there are "ifs" and "perhaps", but there are unanswered questions in ALL ASPECTS OF SCIENCE

You don't have to believe in it, but comments like the above make you look like an ignorant fool.

Faith in God is like stepping through a portal, once you have gone through that stage of unbelief to a realisation of who God is then you view things in a totally different light.
I'm sure taking hallucinogenic drugs will also let you see the world in a totally different light, but I wouldn't go as far as arguing that the hallucinations are true.

I appreciate your OP's tone. There is usually a lot of scoffing at people who believe in God as being the creator of all, a superiority and an assumption that all people of faith who believe in God and the biblical story of creation are mindless dimwits , which of course we are not (not all anyway).
Belief in Creation is one of the single most blindingly stupid beliefs out there. The sheer levels of wilful ignorance of reality and self-deception required to believe in Creationism are truly remarkable.
Is it any wonder that people laugh at you?
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Dylann
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Obviously Creationism is scientifically correct, it says so in the same book about talking snakes!
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anosmianAcrimony
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(Original post by Racoon)
For me the coin is on the other foot. Teaching evolution as a fact is misleading. It is not 100% a certainty, if it were then everyone would be an atheist.
The question of whether evolution is a fact or not is a question of how the world works - an objective question of what is. You can't give evidence for or against it by citing what people think. What people think has no impact on the real world.

A few hundred years ago, the majority of Europe believed that the Earth was flat. One European back then might have said to another: "It is not a 100% certainty that the Earth is round - if it was, everyone would believe that." When our understanding of the world changes, public opinion doesn't instantly, universally accept the change.
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TheIrrational
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(Original post by Racoon)
For me the coin is on the other foot. Teaching evolution as a fact is misleading. It is not 100% a certainty, if it were then everyone would be an atheist.

There are plenty of' ifs' and 'perhaps' in the evolution process, ie 'If this happened' and so on, and a lot is down to stretching the imagination. You only have to listen to someone like Professor Brian Cox to realise with every question raised it opens up another 20 or so unanswered ones.

Faith in God is like stepping through a portal, once you have gone through that stage of unbelief to a realisation of who God is then you view things in a totally different light.

I appreciate your OP's tone. There is usually a lot of scoffing at people who believe in God as being the creator of all, a superiority and an assumption that all people of faith who believe in God and the biblical story of creation are mindless dimwits , which of course we are not (not all anyway).
Thank you for your input. Your view on the matter is very much what I saw of people on this program. As I said I won't argue with your views as I have nothing to gain by trying to change them. I was just interested to know what people thought. I hope you don't mind if I ask you a couple more questions!

Assuming you are a Christian creationist, do you also believe the earth is approximately 6000 years old? Or is that the super extreme creationists only?

My last question is, would you personally be happy for creationism to be taught as a science in school and if so, what evidence would you feel should go with it to back it up?

Thanks for answering these, in advance. If I appear naive, then it's because I have never really met any Christians (before university), I went to quite a Muslim school and there certainly weren't any Christians there that I knew of, so didn't ever really have this discussion..
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