Is Judo the most useless martial art for self defense? Watch

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SEHughes
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#21
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(Original post by SmashConcept)
To be honest a lot of smaller 1st dans would struggle to throw someone who lifts and is a decent athlete.
Of course, but that's gonna be true of any martial art.
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Monkey D. Luffy
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The main thing here is that it depends on the practitioner more than anything else. Their proficiency and skill plays a major role.
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freya2212
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I do judo, I have reached yellow belt so far and it has come in use. Yes, I am only yellow belt but wow, you learn a lot. I think judo is extremely useful and certainly not useless. I have been going for almost 2 years and I have learnt so much. You may think It's just throwing people around, it's not just that, we have also learnt how to block punches too and all different things, it's brilliant and I definitely recommend judo.
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Ghost Dzog
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Interesting post.

I have trained in a number of martial arts since a kid.

Although I am not proclaiming to be an expert in anything,i do think that i have some invaluable insights that may help.

I am presently training in Judo, and have been coaching for just a couple of years, so still lots to learn.

However, i have done striking arts including a street fighting karate which i grew up in.
Now, as for using Judo for self defence...

Yes, i do think that Judo has a great deal to offer.

However, i do think that for Judo to be really useful for self protection in a self defence situation.

it would need to be taught with self defence in mind, as some experienced and very skilled Judoka may be shocked with a real life conflict and may be shocked if someone punched them.

However.... each individual is different and there are some really tough guys who do judo...
so if someone picks on the one guy and they get over the initial shock of being attacked and perhaps being hit, many of them would make light work out of their opponents.

There is a newer Japanese style of MMA called Kudo which combines Muay Thai/Knockdown Karate with Judo which i think looks really cool and very useful for self defence, especially as they only fight a little on the floor.

No offence to BJJ, but if someone attacks you on the street, then fighting on the floor probably isn't always the best solution for all circumstances.Just to address a few comments on the board.

You may see that a lot of Judo fights start with the grip which may be really confusing, and yes. I understand why that would confuse some, as it confused me when i first started, as coming from a style where i primarily strike people, i thought it was unrealistic to be sat in kumi-kata (gripping) for 5 minutes while you let someone who has bigger muscles throw you around.

However, please keep in mind that almost all the techniques in Judo were originally developed against an armed or unarmed striking attacker, often wild men who are trying to take you out. These origins are called Ju Jutsu

Now, Judo has developed for some years, you will notice that Judo tournament fighting aren't the same as street fights or feudal battle field full of crazies, many untrained peasants armed with anything that can use to kill you.

Judo Tournaments are where one Judo Expert fights another Judo Expert to test in a safe manner, which Judo Expert is the best.
And such a test will be the hardest test that a Judoka will have when testing out their Judo skills.

A skilled Judoka trying to throw an untrained person will often be easier, as i pro boxer having a boxing match with someone who has never thrown a punch will also generally be easier.

Keep that objective fact in mind.

In a Judo tournament fight, people grip up partly because they are not allowed to strike, but their opponents are also not allowed to strike (so no danger of getting hit). They also grip up because this is the ideal starting point to throw from But also, with their grip they can maintain control over their opponent to stop them from moving in to throw them.

So gripping is very strategic.

In a tournament fight, fighters can often be very conservative with their movements.

This is so that they first do not spend too much energy and wear themselves out.but also this is so that they don't give too much energy movement away in any direction, as there are many throws and sweeps that can be used to redirect their opponents energy to add to the power to the throw, which once caught and redirected is very hard to stop.

Now, this idea of redirecting a persons movement is very useful if someone is skilled in applying this concept, especially if they are super quick and are able to move their body in the right position at the right time when their opponent has started on a course of movement in a designated direction.

Now, if you look at the way most laymen punch, they often aren't super skilled like a pro boxer for example who may throw a punch conservatively and then pull their arm/hand back into their guard position so quickly that you don't get enough time to move into the right position and redirect their movement and throw them.... (although if you are really good at throwing and know what grip to use, and are really fast and fearless, you may be able to get in quick enough and get secure the grip you want. Trap your opponents arms and then throw...).

pro boxers will also not make big movements with their bodies, as again, big movements are hard to stop, and in a split second, if you go too far in one direction, you may give your opponent (who may be equally as quick as you) will move to a position that he/she can hit you, and as you have committed yourself, there is no way of stopping getting hit. So pro boxers make small movements, to start with, and when they see the opportunity, only then will they make big movements and commit themselves (knowing they will get a big win and not get hit).

however, and this is something that is important to understand, most people who are untrained or are novice / intermediate strikers will not throw punches that are too quick and will often throw punches will all their power in a way that they over commit themselves and move in one direction.this gives a skilled judoka the opportunity to move in quickly, redirect the movement or at the very least get a gripand then throw their opponent either using their opponents own energy or perhaps even using their own physical energy if need be.

Another comment i would like to address is the most small 1st dans would not be able to throw someone who does weights.

Well, this depends on what the guy means about small. However, i am normally around 80kg and i go to the gym and hang out with mates who do weights.I can pick up easily mates who are over 120 kg without much effort or stress.I can also lift over 160 kg doing squats.

I am presently playing with one hand seoi nage techniques where i have so far been able to lift people who are over 100kg, with... in theory one hand even if they resist... (but there is a secret to that one)...so.

yes. i think that judo can be used for self defence.i don't think Judo will make you indestructible like superman or anything

but i would say it will improve your chances for some circumstances

it also can be a good way to exercise your body, mind and spirit.

And ultimately make society a better place, if that floats your boat.

good luck.
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Ghost Dzog
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MMA history
Milo Savage vs Judo Gene LaBel
1963

*the earliest MMA fight in USA
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Ghost Dzog
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Out of interest

Anyone interested

watch the 1st MMA fight in USA history

a grudge match between

Judo Gene LaBell and Pro Boxer Milo Savage!

can be found on You Tube.
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jaskaranbahra
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judo is the most useless thing going its all controlled throws there is no need to even fight about it
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Ghost Dzog
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Have you seen fedor emelianenko MMA record?
Along with Ronda Rousey's...

But we are all free to have an opinion
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SmashConcept
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jfc people are arguing with an off hand comment I made in 2015.

(Original post by castlehill)
You're thinking of force vs force. If you get the technique right, it's really not difficult to throw a bigger person. Tripping the leg with ko uchi gari for example, the most basic front leg trip. Even if you're talking about hip and shoulder throws, the key is to first get underneath your opponent and unbalance him, if you get that right then throwing someone is a piece of piss, and a smaller person actually has an advantage. That's one of the principles of good judo, turning an opponents advantages (size) into disadvantages.
The problem is, people who lift and are decent athletes are hard to unbalance. Like my post was based on my exact experience of being a decent lifter/athlete and going to a judo class, so I know it's true.

(Original post by SEHughes)
Of course, but that's gonna be true of any martial art.
No it's not. First dans have trained consistently for like 3 years and won at least 5 amateur fights against trained opponents. A 66 kg boxer with a similar resume would knock the piss out of me. A 66 kg BJJ blue belt who competes will easily handle untrained guys who lift and are athletic (unless they're massive or superathletes). A 66 kg first dan judoka will struggle because sport judo (which is really the only kind of judo in this country) techniques are just fundamentally harder to execute than in most martial arts. Traditional judo has double leg takedowns and stuff, but they took them out of sport judo because they make other throws virtually obsolete.

(Original post by Ghost Dzog)
However, i do think that for Judo to be really useful for self protection in a self defence situation.

it would need to be taught with self defence in mind, as some experienced and very skilled Judoka may be shocked with a real life conflict and may be shocked if someone punched them.
It's not taught in this way in this country though. It's taught with sport in mind. Clubs are funded with sport in mind. Belts are awarded according to sport performance.

Another comment i would like to address is the most small 1st dans would not be able to throw someone who does weights.

Well, this depends on what the guy means about small. However, i am normally around 80kg and i go to the gym and hang out with mates who do weights.I can pick up easily mates who are over 120 kg without much effort or stress.I can also lift over 160 kg doing squats.

I am presently playing with one hand seoi nage techniques where i have so far been able to lift people who are over 100kg, with... in theory one hand even if they resist... (but there is a secret to that one)...so.
OK so first of all, there are virtually no clubs where a guy who weighs 80 and squats 160 would be considered "small" for a judoka. When I say small I mean MAYBE natural 73s, and more likely 66 or below. Cos those guys are actually smaller than the average male, whereas an 80 kg man clearly isn't especially if he squats 160.

Being able to lift people over 120 is really not relevant. I'm not saying these guys can't throw them because they're too heavy, I'm saying they're hard to throw because if a decently strong athlete who is bigger than you decides to stall by staying on balance at arms length there's not much you can do about it unless you're at a really high level which most 1st dans are not.


yes. i think that judo can be used for self defence.i don't think Judo will make you indestructible like superman or anything

but i would say it will improve your chances for some circumstances

it also can be a good way to exercise your body, mind and spirit.

And ultimately make society a better place, if that floats your boat.

good luck.
I mean I agree with this..
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Ghost Dzog
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Hi Smash Concept
Thanks for your reply

Although i still completely disagree.
A small guy who does good quality judo, should be able to throw someone who bigger regardless of size.
I am 5 foot 8. I am fairly small although i understand not the smallest.

I weigh around 80 kg but this is because i have a stone or two extra fat, which is not muscle.

If you look at the mechanics behind some of the techniques, the techniques are designed to not use physical strength.
As you say, this type of Judo is not taught in this country.

My comment is that this type of Judo, or good quality Japanese Judo is still taught but may not be as common due to lazy physical judo still winning competitions and thus allowing some who are less technical attaining high grades due to having superior muscle strength.

This does not mean you can't still train this way, you just need to fight a coach that does teach this way. I have met some who do teach this way, but i also do my own study and analysis.

In addition, there are also excellent online video courses where you can learn so much. Fighting Films Superstars of Judo. Awesome.
Neil Adams also has released courses which are supposed to fill in the technical knowledge before getting to Superstars of Judo.

As for being bellow 73 above 66.
I used to train in Liverpool, on a mat where some of the players were nearer 7 foot and who were 140 kg easy.
The man who threw everyone, not to mention tapped everyone out on the ground was a mild mannered guy in his 40s
he was about 5 foot 4, and weighed 60 kg.

There are a number of ways that a smaller person can throw a big heavier opponent.
Some use timing and gravity after breaking balance. Drop Seoi Nage (or Ryo Hiza Seoi Nage / Otoshi if we want to get technical).

With koshi (or hip throws) it is possible for a smaller person to break the balance by knocking opponent off balance by hitting them low in the shins which your rear end. The lower you go the less amount of force is needed.

With koshi (hip throws) it is also possible for a small person to put their body in place, pin their partner to them, then pick up with their legs (not with your arms). The lower you go down before clamping your opponents body to you, the further you potentially will pick them off the ground.
Although note, to throw someone with a hip throw, you don't have to lift them high off the ground. as long as they are slightly even a mm off, then you have them. And because their weight rests on your legs, you don't really have to use muscle strength to finish the throw.

Actually, many of the throws in Judo don't require you to lift opponent off the floor completely, just get them to transfer their weight to your preferred area, before attacking that area.

If you use the legs to pick up, then even if they resist, you usually can still pick them up.

Just because no one you know teaches in this way, does not mean you can not learn. And even more important.
I have met some really great technical Sensei in the UK, who have learnt from top Japanese Sensei, so they are there.
The BJA has some excellent delivery officers for their coaching and technical courses, so the sensei are there. just for you to find them.
If you write to the BJA i am sure they will be able to connect you with what ever type of sensei you are interested in.
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Ghost Dzog
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ps. ever heard of breaking grip?
where their is no grip
there is no resistance...
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SmashConcept
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lol those posts were pretty ridiculous tho..
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SmashConcept
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So I sparred about 3 rounds of grappling today with a black belt judoka who outweighs me and has better BJJ too, but is a little shorter and older. I have very little wrestling skills since when I grapple we usually start from knees. I did a bit of judo for a year in about 2011 and ended up getting a green belt, not because I really earned it but because my instructor wanted me to compete in a green belt competition. Here's roughly how it went:

We grip fight, I break his lapel grip and use an armdrag to outside leg trip which he isn't expecting because it's not really taught in judo nor is it that common in gi grappling. This was technically legal in judo I think.

He gets dominant grips, I drop my weight to buy time while I try to improve, then single leg him. This is illegal in judo and judokas don't spend much time learning to stop it.

He turns in for a harai goshi, I step out and counter with a single leg (this happened a couple of times). I think this is illegal in judo, or at least not commonly taught.

He tried a couple of other throws including morote seio nage. They didn't work cos these throws are low percentage for low level black belts and I am strong with good balance.

A couple of times I attempted single legs and he sprawled nicely to get on top. This has nothing to do with judo.

His grip fighting and ashi waza was much better than mine and put him in good positions. He did take me down once or twice I think but wouldn't have scored an ippon. At no point did he just break my grip causing me to lose all resistance because that is ridiculous and no decent athlete will allow it. I spent most of my time on top.

He showed me a really nice entry for harai goshi which I plan to drill quite a lot. Whether I ever use it in a fight is a bit more dubious since turning your back on a good grappler is kind of risky.

There are some ne waza techniques judokas do way better, especially kesa gatame which other grapplers don't really train at all. When he does it to me I'm stuck. When I do it to him he has some sneaky escapes.
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Ghost Dzog
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(Original post by SmashConcept)
At no point did he just break my grip causing me to lose all resistance because that is ridiculous and no decent athlete will allow it.
just a couple of comments here dude.
first, i will address this comment above.

If you research modern kumikata, you will find that high level judo use this strategy all the time and a high percentage of ippons score use this strategy,
throwing off the grip so to speak.

So sorry mate. Your comment was unfounded. Please research further.
In fact, you will find such strategies very common in the world champs and Olympics. But this is high level Judo not just grass roots.

Now reading your post, i get it now. Your one of those guys who has done a bit of Jiu Jutsu who slates Judo. I have met such guys before, as before i started Judo I did do BJJ, which i started in 1999. Which incidentally wasn't the first martial art i have done. But hey, I am not saying i am superman or anything, but i have no axe to grind either.

I personally feel that standing techniques as found in Judo, are still relevant for self defence. Hence why you can find judo throws in Krav Maga, Gracie Jiu Jutsu, Sambo, and practically every other useful style on the planet.

I guess its because they work. Not because they are "useless".
But hey, what can i say.

Interestingly enough, I have read a lot on the Gracie Family and read a lot on high level practitioners of Jiu Jutsu, and the Gracie Family come across as really open minded and respectful. If you ask someone like Rickson Gracie or Carlson Gracie, not to mention Royce Gracie, and when alive, Helio Gracie
they also would say that Judo isn't useless for self defence but the very basis of what jiu jutsu is based on.

But hey, i guess you know more.
As for the size issue.

Jigoro Kano was 5 foot 2

his teacher from Kito Ryu School Jiu Jutsu was 5 foot.

Master Oda, master of Kosen Ryu was under 5 foot.

Mitsuyo Maeda was 5 foot 6 (other wise known as count koma, who taught the Gracie Family).

So, where i understand that size does play a part. It isn't everything.

Finally with regards to self defence, which is what this thread was all about.
Being a self respecting athlete or not has nothing to do with saving your life.
On the street there is either live or die. No rules.
So breaking grip is plausible defence.
Actually, in terms of self defence, i would likely recommend people to break fingers and wrists if possible, and break legs.

As after all, Self Defence isn't MMA or competition Judo or competition or sport jiu jutsu. Its self defence. If the attacker don't like it, then he or she shouldn't have attacked.

broken fingers and wrists make jiu jutsu, judo and boxing really hard to do.
but there ya go.
Probably not the answer you looking for.

If i were you, you should check out international level judo.
although you may have to slow down the video, as those guys move fast.
you will find the grip breaks are there especially at high level and usually get followed by throws. But i guess if you don't want to do this then you don't have to.

I am starting to wonder why the hell i bothered spending time trying to help someone who doesn't want help.
good luck.
Bye for good.
ps. dont care if you write any thing after this
in attempt to try and prove your point
if that's your ignorant attitude
then i hope you grow up.
hell.
i am pleased i am not 60 kg's and get beaten by everyone.
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SmashConcept
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JFC you have misunderstood everything I said. At no point did I disrespect judo. I've probably trained judo more than any other art. I even mentioned what judokas do well in my post.

Me: Techniques legal in sport judo are low percentage against decent athletes until you get to a high level
You: High level judoka can do them so you must be wrong.

...


You should have stuck to grappling mate, seems like messing with striking arts gave you brain damage.
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Some Black Dude
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Just felt like reviving this... Judo is very popular in MMA. Grappling is actually very efficient. While people intuitively know how to punch they don't know how to grapple. Not because grappling is less effective or whatever but it's just so complex compared to the art of throwing your arms with force. In other words, a world class Judoka would do better at boxing a world champion boxer than a world champion boxer would at doing judo with a world class judoka. If you actually watch judo competitions it's very very similar to wrestling and jiujitsu, which are VERY street proven and there are countless videos of youtube of people getting choked out or slammed on youtube using their techniques.

What you describe "slow-motion throws" are for the sake of learning material, when you actually train with them you do them full speed. It's no different from learning to bike, you start off slow but eventually, your dad gives you a little push and you peddle your little legs off. They don't genuinely believe that slow-motion techniques will work in a physical altercation, they just train it slowly to get the mechanics down so when they spar with it fast they aren't looking crazy.

We have seen MMA fighters use judo against punches and kicks. Not by blocks or whatever necessary, but by closing the distance and going for a throw. If you doubt this even further, look at any street fight, boxing match, or MMA fight. As the fight goes on any punches and kicks you perform are less accurate because you are tired and the adrenaline is affecting your judgment. People will often grab each other to keep them from punching for a few seconds of a breather, and through judo your clinches are more effective at stopping someone from punching, you are capable of defending clinches with escapes and takedowns, and you are capable of performing takedowns and chokes from a clinched position.

Ultimately I take it you have never studied a martial art before? Maybe you've sat in for a few classes at a little siblings judo class?
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username1837067
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http://theselfdefenceexpert.com/best-martial-arts/

I do Krav Maga so I damn sure help it's useful in real life situations
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RockyDennis
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Muay Thai is EASILY the most effective martial art. It's not close. I had the chance to train alongside an elite world ranked Muay Thai fighter... I was going to an MMA gym at the time and he was completely new to "MMA", just had experience with striking, so he got paired up with me.

They actually learn a lot of takedowns and takedown defence in Muay Thai, like you wouldn't think that would you? He had tonnes of sweeps and all sorts of ****, and could block takedowns to an elite level.

Judo is good and works, because it teaches you ground grappling, but for a complete martial art Muay Thai is the best... Or Combat Sambo, but Muay Thai appears to be at a higher level AND striking is WAYYYY more useful in a fight. If an ELITE MMA fighter got into a street fight, it's almost guaranteed they'd start out by throwing hands and kicks, because they probably would assume their great striking is better than whoever they're facing. That's why some guys like Don Frye got KO'd in street fights because he was unlucky enough to try using his great hands against a good boxer - Might have even been a somewhat famous one I forget. Anyone into MMA is best served just shooting a takedown straight away, and treating every opponent like they're world class boxers.

In almost ALL situations though grappling is dangerous. There's almost no situations apart from very contrived ones (e.g. sporting events) where you can grapple without getting your head kicked in by someone while you're rolling around. Best use of wrestling or judo is to just chuck someone down and then kick them in the head - which is taught in Muat Thai.
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lalliboo
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#39
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I used to do judo, and I can tell you if you push someone's arm in a certain way you can break it. My instructor also used to teach us how to defend ourselves with judo. So I'm going to have to disagree. It's pretty useful.
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anosmianAcrimony
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As a fencer, I can tell you that fencing is easily the least practical martial art. Since you can't really carry a rapier around in this day and age, outside of sharpening your reactions and giving you a bit of balance and explosive leg strength, it's pretty useless.
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