TSR: anti-progress?

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Jacky Hearts
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After being on this website for a little while and talking with a few wonderful and a few more dreadful people (I don't agree with most of either of those groups) I've noticed the very anti-progress trend amongst TSR. By this it seems that many people on here have very little desire, and some are actively against, many social changes.

The sentiments I've noticed include: anti-equality (especially social equality), anti-feminist, anti-pluralist, nationalist, conservative (not the party, the ideology based on maintaining tradition and continuity and opposed to change) and... Yeah... The list continues.

So my questions are: do you agree with my observation? Why? Do you believe the things I've pointed out to be positive or negative?
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thesabbath
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What are you "progressing" to, if not communism?
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HigherMinion
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If you believe a majority of TSR voices are echoing these sentiments then I can only applaud and rejoice. It's a shame you decided to call this "anti-progress". Nobody wishes to "go back" to a time ago, merely to choose a better future for ourselves. People have reasoned and decided that the current path of hippy free love and socialism is not benefiting us and is damaging our freedoms which we once held dear.

Unfortunately, as many of us on the right of politics (and TSR) find, is our content that cuts to the core of liberal values (liberation, not liberty) the admins and mods will quickly step in to censor you. So, until the people in charge become more liberty-centric, we continue to live through this tyranny.
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dyslexicvegie
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The angry voice is the loudest, so yes there is a disproportionate amount of what could be termed anti progressive views on here. They see progress they can't stop in the real world and shout about it on here.

I think the anti-feminist thing is a little different. Instead of well explained objections there is a large amount misogynistic abuse just like anywhere on the internet.

Also the young demographic on here (ovs as it's the student room) would explain why some arguments are less developed. Through more limited life experience of some tsr members e.g never had a gay friend, or a black friend or known anybody who got pregnant accidentally, never had the misfortune of having to rely on the welfare state, more likely to take the daily mail at face value . etc

^^ generalisations but go some way to explain the skewed proportions of people expressing minority opinions.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by Jacky Hearts)
After being on this website for a little while and talking with a few wonderful and a few more dreadful people (I don't agree with most of either of those groups) I've noticed the very anti-progress trend amongst TSR. By this it seems that many people on here have very little desire, and some are actively against, many social changes.

The sentiments I've noticed include: anti-equality (especially social equality), anti-feminist, anti-pluralist, nationalist, conservative (not the party, the ideology based on maintaining tradition and continuity and opposed to change) and... Yeah... The list continues.

So my questions are: do you agree with my observation? Why? Do you believe the things I've pointed out to be positive or negative?
My observation is that TSR is very liberal but not strongly capitalist or socialist.
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Jacky Hearts
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(Original post by thesabbath)
What are you "progressing" to, if not communism?
Well there's multiple types of progress to be made even if you don't want to progress to a society along Socialist lines. The removal of racial prejudice from society, ending social patriarchal undertones, abandoning the imagined divisions nationalism has instilled, ending homophobia etc. I purposefully avoided talking about Socialism in my OP because, although the inherent contradictions of exploitation and Capitalism are important, I know right wingers won't agree with me there, but I don't understand why one wouldn't agree with these other progressive ideas which TSR seems to slam down.


(Original post by HigherMinion)
If you believe a majority of TSR voices are echoing these sentiments then I can only applaud and rejoice. It's a shame you decided to call this "anti-progress". Nobody wishes to "go back" to a time ago, merely to choose a better future for ourselves. People have reasoned and decided that the current path of hippy free love and socialism is not benefiting us and is damaging our freedoms which we once held dear.
I don't suggest people here want to 'go back'. Mainly that they don't want to move forward.

And if by a better future for 'ourselves' you mean middle-upper class straight white people, with the token middle-class minority then yes, our current society will provide a good future.

What freedoms do you think have been damaged by what you call 'hippy free love' and 'socialism' because those two things, to my fairly well versed historical knowledge of 20th Century Britain haven't ever damaged freedom, as oppose to furthering it.

(Original post by dyslexicvegie)
The angry voice is the loudest, so yes there is a disproportionate amount of what could be termed anti progressive views on here. They see progress they can't stop in the real world and shout about it on here.

I think the anti-feminist thing is a little different. Instead of well explained objections there is a large amount misogynistic abuse just like anywhere on the internet.

Also the young demographic on here (ovs as it's the student room) would explain why some arguments are less developed. Through more limited life experience of some tsr members e.g never had a gay friend, or a black friend or known anybody who got pregnant accidentally, never had the misfortune of having to rely on the welfare state, more likely to take the daily mail at face value . etc

^^ generalisations but go some way to explain the skewed proportions of people expressing minority opinions.
Well explained. I had a similair hypothesis on your point about a lack of experience.

(Original post by Rakas21)
My observation is that TSR is very liberal but not strongly capitalist or socialist.
The strong anti-feminist sentiment as well as a fair amount of racism and other discrimination counter that idea, as well as the abundance of anti-Welfarism based on Social Darwinism and Laissez-Faire ideals.
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SotonianOne
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Because TSR is very school/education-based and the only type of people who visit these places are those who want to get somewhere in life, which tend to be people who lean to "anti-progress".

For progress you can look at Facebook/Twitter but not sure you'd get much educational content there.
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Jacky Hearts
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(Original post by SotonianOne)
Because TSR is very school/education-based and the only type of people who visit these places are those who want to get somewhere in life, which tend to be people who lean to "anti-progress".

For progress you can look at Facebook/Twitter but not sure you'd get much educational content there.
Quite an elitist view and wholly inaccurate considering the evidence of 'progressive' thinkers.

Let's think about progressive thinkers:
Karl Marx: ideological inspiration to Marxists. Most economists, no matter what their views, regard him as a genius upon reading his works such as Das Kapital.
Kropotkin and Bakunin: Both highly educated Russian aristocrats who gave up their titles and were essential in developing two schools of ideological thought.
Chomsky: Libertarian Socialist, widely respected in many fields: economics, Politics, psychology and linguistics. If you study any of those things academically at any level you're going to here his name at least pop up.
Sydney Webb: Economic genius and key thinker of Revisionist Socialism (alongside his wife)
Harold Wilson: Undertook the most progressive legal social reforms of his time, Lecturer of Economic History at New College, Oxford.
John Stuart Mill: Alongside being the big-daddy of Liberalism's social thinking was an advocate of feminism before feminism was even a thing. His academic achievements are too many to begin to list.
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HigherMinion
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(Original post by Jacky Hearts)
Quite an elitist view and wholly inaccurate considering the evidence of 'progressive' thinkers.

Let's think about progressive thinkers:
Karl Marx: ideological inspiration to Marxists. Most economists, no matter what their views, regard him as a genius upon reading his works such as Das Kapital.
Kropotkin and Bakunin: Both highly educated Russian aristocrats who gave up their titles and were essential in developing two schools of ideological thought.
Chomsky: Libertarian Socialist, widely respected in many fields: economics, Politics, psychology and linguistics. If you study any of those things academically at any level you're going to here his name at least pop up.
Sydney Webb: Economic genius and key thinker of Revisionist Socialism (alongside his wife)
Harold Wilson: Undertook the most progressive legal social reforms of his time, Lecturer of Economic History at New College, Oxford.
John Stuart Mill: Alongside being the big-daddy of Liberalism's social thinking was an advocate of feminism before feminism was even a thing. His academic achievements are too many to begin to list.
You seem to have missed out the unabomber. Was that intentional? http://cyber.eserver.org/unabom.txt here you go. He was very progressive, revolutionary really, since he used violence to be noticed.

(Original post by Jacky Hearts)
I don't suggest people here want to 'go back'. Mainly that they don't want to move forward.

And if by a better future for 'ourselves' you mean middle-upper class straight white people, with the token middle-class minority then yes, our current society will provide a good future.

What freedoms do you think have been damaged by what you call 'hippy free love' and 'socialism' because those two things, to my fairly well versed historical knowledge of 20th Century Britain haven't ever damaged freedom, as oppose to furthering it.
Because Marxists have taken control of the language, institutions and the culture of Britain, we have become diluted into being subservient to the vocal minority. The mere fact that we are immediately aware that "progression" means "removal of racial prejudice from society, ending social patriarchal undertones, abandoning the imagined divisions nationalism has instilled, ending homophobia etc." shows that the language is well under control to suit this conflict narrative.

However, I think a lot of people are waking up to the fact that the feminist and Marxist ideologies are simply divisive and are made to destroy our nation from within. Just consider what the propaganda terms and what counts for homophobia and racism now. Opposing gay marriage is now considered homophobic, regardless of your reasons. Not wanting foreigners in your homeland is racist. The problem is that Marxists (modern day Marxists at least, what some call cultural Marxists) don't understand how human nature works and/or seek to change it through vastly totalitarian methods. The softening up on Big Government, the erosion of self-defence through arms, the loss of freedom of expression, the soon loss even of assumed innocence in court if the rape lobby keep it up. All of these freedoms that we have taken for granted which have helped keep us out of tyranny are going to kick us in the face very soon.

inb4 tinfoil.
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SotonianOne
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(Original post by Jacky Hearts)
Quite an elitist view and wholly inaccurate considering the evidence of 'progressive' thinkers.

Let's think about progressive thinkers:
Karl Marx: ideological inspiration to Marxists. Most economists, no matter what their views, regard him as a genius upon reading his works such as Das Kapital.
Kropotkin and Bakunin: Both highly educated Russian aristocrats who gave up their titles and were essential in developing two schools of ideological thought.
Chomsky: Libertarian Socialist, widely respected in many fields: economics, Politics, psychology and linguistics. If you study any of those things academically at any level you're going to here his name at least pop up.
Sydney Webb: Economic genius and key thinker of Revisionist Socialism (alongside his wife)
Harold Wilson: Undertook the most progressive legal social reforms of his time, Lecturer of Economic History at New College, Oxford.
John Stuart Mill: Alongside being the big-daddy of Liberalism's social thinking was an advocate of feminism before feminism was even a thing. His academic achievements are too many to begin to list.
I don't understand what your post has to do with my quote at all.

I'm fairly sure Karl Marx isn't an active member of TSR.
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Jacky Hearts
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(Original post by HigherMinion)
You seem to have missed out the unabomber. Was that intentional? http://cyber.eserver.org/unabom.txt here you go. He was very progressive, revolutionary really, since he used violence to be noticed.
I have no idea of who or what that is. I will be sure to give it a read.

(Original post by HigherMinion)
Because Marxists have taken control of the language, institutions and the culture of Britain, we have become diluted into being subservient to the vocal minority. The mere fact that we are immediately aware that "progression" means "removal of racial prejudice from society, ending social patriarchal undertones, abandoning the imagined divisions nationalism has instilled, ending homophobia etc." shows that the language is well under control to suit this conflict narrative.
I honestly don't agree that Britain has any Marxist control over anything, considering that Marxism is a revolutionary ideal solely concerned with destroying Capitalism, in the blind belief that this will solve all of society's other problems. I've only ever met one Marxist in my entire life. As such you can't claim that Marxism has any sort of dominion over anything really, because it doesn't concern itself with patriarchy, or nationalism or homophobia or ANYTHING other than changing the economic system. I highly suggest you read Capital and the Communist Manifesto to understand this. I have and I don't agree with the Manifesto at all and I agree only partially with Capital, but it was still a fascinating read. And I won't disagree that Marxism has problems. I find it distasteful, as an authoritarian ideology which has the best intentions of bringing us to utopia but can only end in something similar to the Stalinist variant of Socialism. But at the same time I also respect that Marx made some very accurate criticisms of society.

(Original post by SotonianOne)
I don't understand what your post has to do with my quote at all.

I'm fairly sure Karl Marx isn't an active member of TSR.
I was simply pointing out that your point, that 'those who want to get somewhere in life' and those who are 'very school/education-based' are anti progress, is utter unadulterated *******s. As well as your insinuation that there is a correlation between education and opposition to societal progression.
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KingStannis
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Change is okay asn long as what you're changing to is good.
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SotonianOne
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(Original post by Jacky Hearts)
I was simply pointing out that your point, that 'those who want to get somewhere in life' and those who are 'very school/education-based' are anti progress, is utter unadulterated *******s. As well as your insinuation that there is a correlation between education and opposition to societal progression.
Once again, wtf are you on about?

Dude, your fallacy is astounding. I don't know how you can pull bigger straws than what you are doing.

Maybe in a couple of weeks you will re-read my post and see it from a more average-person perspective.
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Jacky Hearts
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(Original post by SotonianOne)
Once again, wtf are you on about?

Dude, your fallacy is astounding. I don't know how you can pull bigger straws than what you are doing.

Maybe in a couple of weeks you will re-read my post and see it from a more average-person perspective.
Then explain your point to me.

From my understand you essentially meant: "TSR is based around education. People here are educated and want to do well. This means they're probably going to oppose "progress". People on social media aren't educated, that's why they're pro-"progression".
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HigherMinion
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(Original post by Jacky Hearts)
I have no idea of who or what that is. I will be sure to give it a read.

I honestly don't agree that Britain has any Marxist control over anything, considering that Marxism is a revolutionary ideal solely concerned with destroying Capitalism, in the blind belief that this will solve all of society's other problems. I've only ever met one Marxist in my entire life. As such you can't claim that Marxism has any sort of dominion over anything really, because it doesn't concern itself with patriarchy, or nationalism or homophobia or ANYTHING other than changing the economic system. I highly suggest you read Capital and the Communist Manifesto to understand this. I have and I don't agree with the Manifesto at all and I agree only partially with Capital, but it was still a fascinating read. And I won't disagree that Marxism has problems. I find it distasteful, as an authoritarian ideology which has the best intentions of bringing us to utopia but can only end in something similar to the Stalinist variant of Socialism. But at the same time I also respect that Marx made some very accurate criticisms of society.
Since you actually seem interested in reading, you can read this when you're not busy: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cultural-Rev.../dp/B003ZSHOFS

Should explain everything you have questions or objections to, and the good doctor is more eloquent than I. I have read the Communist Manifesto, but I got bored with Capital quite early in to it, to be honest. I'd just gone through the manifesto and thought I'd find something more palatable in Capital, to no avail: it was full of divisive language and dehumanising tactics towards both the team he was fighting for (the proles) and against the wealthy aristocracy. He thinks in binary far too much and doesn't give any considerations to anything more than "here's somebody with 3 and here's somebody with 1, therefore the 3 should give 1 away. That's only fair."

Feminism is built off the back of Marxism. It replaces class warfare with sexual warfare. Don't be obtuse in not seeing the connection.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_hegemony
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SotonianOne
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(Original post by Jacky Hearts)
Then explain your point to me.

From my understand you essentially meant: "TSR is based around education. People here are educated and want to do well. This means they're probably going to oppose "progress". People on social media aren't educated, that's why they're pro-"progression".
Yes exactly.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by Jacky Hearts)

The strong anti-feminist sentiment as well as a fair amount of racism and other discrimination counter that idea, as well as the abundance of anti-Welfarism based on Social Darwinism and Laissez-Faire ideals.
People here don't oppose the concept of feminism (support for women being treat equally is high), what they oppose (and i'm one of them) is the mainstream feminist movement which seeks to force equality of outcome via anti-male quotas or ideas like opposing a male pill because it would take choice away from women.

Racism on here is pretty low.

I'd agree with that but stems from capitalist thinking.
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ChaoticButterfly
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People often say Britain is conservative with a small 'c' like it is a good thing. I would rather it be progressive with a small 'p'.
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HigherMinion
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(Original post by Jacky Hearts)
Then explain your point to me.
The real threat of progressivism is its escalatory and emergent nature. A progressive has to constantly champion a new cause, because otherwise they are satisfied with the status quo and by definition become conservatives. This means that liberals will ALWAYS keep on pushing and nothing will ever be enough.

Progressivism looks like it has a goal. But has none in reality. Because once this kind of people get to the goal. They move the goalpost further. This people is not going to stop at all. Any advance they make , they find another stupid thing to complain about. Then they invent the famous term " Microagression" to justify the patriarchy war. And from here it becomes a witch hunt of social micro-agressions towards specific demographics.It will never end, they will never be happy, and they will always find a reason to outrage. What is your goal when you keep moving the goalpost further and further?

Essentially, people who call themselves "progressives" are warriors for social justice, and forever need a cause to fight for- whether there is a fight to be had or not, lest they become conservatives by definition.
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dyslexicvegie
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(Original post by Rakas21)
People here don't oppose the concept of feminism (support for women being treat equally is high), what they oppose (and i'm one of them) is the mainstream feminist movement which seeks to force equality of outcome via anti-male quotas or ideas like opposing a male pill because it would take choice away from women.

Racism on here is pretty low.

I'd agree with that but stems from capitalist thinking.
Opposing the 'male pill' - I hadn't even realised that was a thing, opposing it on feminist grounds that is. I wouldn't call it a mainstream feminist thing. If my bloke is on the pill that doesn't stop me from taking extra precautions.

As a feminist I think the male pill is a great idea.
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