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Imagine there was a pro-Russian coup in Mexico watch

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    How does the US react?
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    (Original post by whorace)
    How does the US react?
    Assassination or invasion.

    But i'd support the US because it's in our interests regardless of right and wrong.

    ..

    I see your point in relation to Russia but the EU is a far more valuable ally.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Assassination or invasion.

    But i'd support the US because it's in our interests regardless of right and wrong.

    ..

    I see your point in relation to Russia but the EU is a far more valuable ally.
    I support neither side i'm just highlighting the utter hypocrisy.
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    (Original post by whorace)
    I support neither side i'm just highlighting the utter hypocrisy.
    True, but one must remember that the world is not fairy land. We live in a world where Russia and the EU have economic unions that implicitly impose tariffs on the other (Russian customs union and EU), so it's inevitable that they were eventually going to lock horns over a potential consumer pool of 40 million people. Not sure anybody thought it would go this far, but the fact is that essentially the EU and Russia are quite happy to tear Ukraine apart for a large consumer market.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    True, but one must remember that the world is not fairy land. We live in a world where Russia and the EU have economic unions that implicitly impose tariffs on the other (Russian customs union and EU), so it's inevitable that they were eventually going to lock horns over a potential consumer pool of 40 million people. Not sure anybody thought it would go this far, but the fact is that essentially the EU and Russia are quite happy to tear Ukraine apart for a large consumer market.
    Consumerist ********s. This is why increasingly I don't care about democracy vs autocracy. It's a false dichotomy, there's **** leaders and good leaders.
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    (Original post by whorace)
    Consumerist ********s. This is why increasingly I don't care about democracy vs autocracy. It's a false dichotomy, there's **** leaders and good leaders.
    Fair point. There's no good and evil, it's just 2 powers wanting to be a bit richer.
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    (Original post by whorace)
    I support neither side i'm just highlighting the utter hypocrisy.
    Hypocrisy implies the US actually did this.

    There was no pro-Russian coup in Mexico, so the US never invade a pro-Russian Mexico.

    Null point.
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    (Original post by ALevelBro)
    Hypocrisy implies the US actually did this.

    There was no pro-Russian coup in Mexico, so the US never invade a pro-Russian Mexico.

    Null point.
    It's a hypothetical situation, if you want an actual example look no further than Cuba.
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    (Original post by whorace)
    It's a hypothetical situation, if you want an actual example look no further than Cuba.
    Not only are you comparing two different scenarios, you are using an example that is over 50 years old to justify the current Russian invasion of Ukraine.

    Do you see the issue in that?
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    (Original post by ALevelBro)
    Not only are you comparing two different scenarios, you are using an example that is over 50 years old to justify the current Russian invasion of Ukraine.

    Do you see the issue in that?
    Ok

    Considering you compared Putin to Hitler before the hypocrisy is not lost on you but if you want some recent examples.

    Iraq, Libya, Syria, Venezuelan(2002),
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    (Original post by whorace)
    Ok

    Considering you compared Putin to Hitler before the hypocrisy is not lost on you but if you want some recent examples.

    Iraq, Libya, Syria, Venezuelan(2002),
    No, that's a completely different comparison and I see absolutely no reason you'd tie these two together?

    I compared Putin to Hitler in an attempt to explain Putin's character...

    You compared Cuba to Ukraine in an attempt to justify Putin's actions.

    The above scenarios have little in common with the crisis in Ukraine.
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    (Original post by ALevelBro)
    No, that's a completely different comparison and I see absolutely no reason you'd tie these two together?

    I compared Putin to Hitler in an attempt to explain Putin's character...

    You compared Cuba to Ukraine in an attempt to justify Putin's actions.

    The above scenarios have little in common with the crisis in Ukraine.
    They all involve intervening in another countries affairs for security reasons without permission.
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    (Original post by whorace)
    They all involve intervening in another countries affairs for security reasons without permission.
    That is true.

    Ukraine, on the other hand, did not undermine Russia's security; which makes Putin's invasion of Ukraine all the worse.
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    (Original post by ALevelBro)
    That is true.

    Ukraine, on the other hand, did not undermine Russia's security; which makes Putin's invasion of Ukraine all the worse.
    Except that is where you are wrong. It was a revolution on the border, it has weapons factories the Soviets used, Crimea is where the naval fleet of Russia has been for centuries, the nationalist government that opposed Viktor Yanukovych immediately proposed legislation to make the Russian language a minority. Yanukovych was popular in the East and the people (or at least enough) of Kiev overthrew him and then held elections without them. There is also concern about NATO expansion...
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    Unsure at this point. 25 years ago you would have seen an invasion or some sort of interference, today I'm not convinced we'd see such a response.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Unsure at this point. 25 years ago you would have seen an invasion or some sort of interference, today I'm not convinced we'd see such a response.
    But we can at least entertain the idea that the US would consider it very unsettling? I think a lot of cold war xenophobia is clouding the facts.
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    (Original post by whorace)
    They all involve intervening in another countries affairs for security reasons without permission.
    To spin it the other way, should Russia have invited Ukraine to join their customs union knowing that it would provoke a response?
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    (Original post by whorace)
    Except that is where you are wrong. It is on the border, it has weapons factories the Soviets used, Crimea is where the naval fleet of Russia has been for centuries, the nationalist government that opposed Viktor Yanukovych immediately proposed legislation to make the Russian language a minority. Yanukovych was popular in the East and the people (or at least enough) of Kiev overthrew him and then held elections without them.
    None of these are an issue because Ukraine isn't a threat to Russia - they handed away their nuclear arsenal. Ukraine also makes a great deal of money with weapon exports, and there's (or at least was, before Putler began the invasion) no need for a large military so it's not as if these factories would be working against Russia.

    There's an agreement of lease between Russia and Ukraine for military bases in Crimea that was renewed prior to the crisis - until the 2030s or even 2040s.

    Removing the special status of the Russian language does not threaten Russian interests at all. Furthermore, Ukraine has its own language and is an independent country, so I don't see the problem with that?

    The elections in May did not account for the people in the East because they were on the territory of two terrorist republics and an active warzone, the DNR and the LNR. Therefore it would be impossible to organize a voting procedure there. However they were free to vote for the Rada elections.
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    (Original post by whorace)
    But we can at least entertain the idea that the US would consider it very unsettling? I think a lot of cold war xenophobia is clouding the facts.
    Not really. All nations would consider it, I just doubt many would go ahead with it.
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    (Original post by ALevelBro)
    None of these are an issue because Ukraine isn't a threat to Russia - they handed away their nuclear arsenal. Ukraine also makes a great deal of money with weapon exports, and there's (or at least was, before Putler began the invasion) no need for a large military so it's not as if these factories would be working against Russia.

    There's an agreement of lease between Russia and Ukraine for military bases in Crimea that was renewed prior to the crisis - until the 2030s or even 2040s.

    Removing the special status of the Russian language does not threaten Russian interests at all. Furthermore, Ukraine has its own language and is an independent country, so I don't see the problem with that?

    The elections in May did not account for the people in the East because they were on the territory of two terrorist republics and an active warzone, the DNR and the LNR. Therefore it would be impossible to organize a voting procedure there. However they were free to vote for the Rada elections.
    Which might not be recognised by the new government.

    No but it is awfully concerning that the first thing a government does is discriminates a quarter of its population.
 
 
 
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