Bruce / Caitlyn Jenner and the Olympics

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Poll: Which event would Caitlyn Jenner compete it?
The Men's Decathlon (0)
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She could choose between either (1)
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She would be banned from both (8)
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Thaladan
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#1
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#1
Bruce Jenner did, of course, compete in Men's Decathlon in the 1976 Montreal Olympic Games.

He has since received hormone replacement therapy and has undergone extensive cosmetic surgery as part of his gender transition into Caitlyn Jenner.

Now, suppose Caitlyn wished to compete in the 2016 Rio Olympic Games (yes, I know she's 65 and ergo is not athletically capable; this is theoretical): should she compete in the Men's Decathlon or the Women's Decathlon?
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Swanbow
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Olympic rules state that a transgender person can compete in their gender category after having undergone a sex change operation and having been on hormones for two years.
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Thaladan
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(Original post by Swanbow)
Olympic rules state that a transgender person can compete in their gender category after having undergone a sex change operation and having been on hormones for two years.
I'm no medical expert, but, even after two years, wouldn't she still retain an unfair physical advantage just from having been born as a man?
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TechnoHead
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(Original post by Ripper Phoenix)
he should be banned from existence
*she


or maybe he or maybe it hmm....
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aeshah
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(Original post by Thaladan)
Bruce Jenner did, of course, compete in Men's Decathlon in the 1976 Montreal Olympic Games.

He has since received hormone replacement therapy and has undergone extensive cosmetic surgery as part of his gender transition into Caitlyn Jenner.

Now, suppose Caitlyn wished to compete in the 2016 Rio Olympic Games (yes, I know she's 65 and ergo is not athletically capable; this is theoretical): would she compete in the Men's Decathlon or the Women's Decathlon?
Your post is respectful and you obvs used 'she/her' in the second paragraph so i'm not criticising but can you please not use the term 'he' when talking about her in the past. Although she has just publicly identified as a woman, she was as much of a woman when she won her medal as she is now. She might have been in a designated male body but her gender has always been female. Thank you
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SuperSam19
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(Original post by Ripper Phoenix)
he should be banned from existence
rt. Disgusting specimen (can I consider it human?)
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aeshah
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(Original post by Ripper Phoenix)
he should be banned from existence
Please tell me you're joking, this is a real human being you're talking about. A person with the right to choose how she wants to live her own life. Show some respect for god's sake even if it makes you personally uncomfortable. And if you can't be respectful, don't say anything.
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SuperSam19
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(Original post by aeshah)
Your post is respectful and you obvs used 'she/her' in the second paragraph so i'm not criticising but can you please not use the term 'he' when talking about her in the past. Although she has just publicly identified as a woman, she was as much of a woman when she won her medal as she is now. She might have been in a designated male body but her gender has always been female. Thank you
No I can say he if I choose to. And frankly HE isn't just as much as woman as HE is now because HE didn't have a sex change operation back then to make him a woman now did HE
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Swanbow
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(Original post by Thaladan)
I'm no medical expert, but, even after two years, wouldn't she still retain an unfair physical advantage just from having been born as a man?
I'm no medical expert either. But I guess the International Olympic Committee must have considered that, and come to their decision based on expert medical and sports science advice.
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aeshah
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(Original post by SuperSam19)
No I can say he if I choose to. And frankly HE isn't just as much as woman as HE is now because HE didn't have a sex change operation back then to make him a woman now did HE
Some trans people never have the surgery because they can't afford it or because like in Catelyn's case for most of her life, she wasn't out about it. That doesn't make them less valid as a trans person.
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SuperSam19
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(Original post by TechnoHead)
*she


or maybe he or maybe it hmm....
'It' would be the most reasonable and feasible term to use imo
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Thaladan
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(Original post by aeshah)
Your post is respectful and you obvs used 'she/her' in the second paragraph so i'm not criticising but can you please not use the term 'he' when talking about her in the past. Although she has just publicly identified as a woman, she was as much of a woman when she won her medal as she is now. She might have been in a designated male body but her gender has always been female. Thank you
You have rather posed an inevitable question, so I'll ask it:

If Caitlyn Jenner was "as much of a woman when she won her medal as she is now", should she have competed in the Women's Decathlon in 1976 Olympics?
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Ripper Phoenix
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(Original post by TechnoHead)
*she


or maybe he or maybe it hmm....
lets call it an IT
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aeshah
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(Original post by Thaladan)
You have rather posed an inevitable question, so I'll ask it:

If Caitlyn Jenner was "as much of a woman when she won her medal as she is now", should she have competed in the Women's Decathlon in 1976 Olympics?
No because she was a woman but didn't have a male physique/genitalia/hormones then so in the interest of fairness, a trans woman who is pre-op would be in the men's competition. Post-op however is complicated and I don't think anyone's qualified to answer that unless they're a doctor and have the necessary knowledge about hormone changes etc.
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SuperSam19
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he evidently wasn't as much a woman back then because he most definitely would not have won the gold medal if that was the case. Ygm?
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Ripper Phoenix
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(Original post by SuperSam19)
rt. Disgusting specimen (can I consider it human?)
definitely it isn't human
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Daenerys...
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Transphobia in the sports community is not cool. I think the responses in this thread are disgraceful.
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SuperSam19
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(Original post by Daenerys...)
Transphobia in the sports community is not cool. I think the responses in this thread are disgraceful.
That's your opinion.
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BKS
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Late to the thread but the conditions of trans people competing:
You must have had your testicles/ovaries removed
You need to have been on hormones for two years after you have your testicles/ovaries removed
You must have had external lower surgery
You must have state issued documents with your gender correct on it

I'm not convinced testicles and ovaries make a difference to hormone levels that would significantly effect sports performance if you are on anti-androgens for women/ testosterone for men but there is of course no science, research on trans health is ****. I think for many sports there should be an amount of time trans women need to have hormone levels within the cisnormative female range. Two years might be as good a guess as any, but again, I don't think having or not having testicles is directly relevant. I don't see why trans men should have any time on hormone requirements. If anything competing against cis men in the first few years on testosterone will be a disadvantage and they should be free to choose disadvantage over not competing.

I can't think of any way in which the shape of your bits and what your ID says effects your sporting ability so I don't think the second two conditions make any sense.


On a practical level, in the UK's medical system, I can't see anyone ever meeting those requirements before they are 22 but in reality it'd likely be a few years older. That's quite old for most sports. It means most potential Olympians who happen to be trans will miss their chance. I also don't think this policy would be legal in the UK. The UK courts can't make the Olympics change anything but they could challenge sporting bodies who have copied the policy for domestic competitions. In short, if those conditions can't be backed up with science saying they are all required to keep things fair then it is discrimination under the Equality Act. It's pretty clear cut discrimination for trans men at least, with trans women there is more gray area
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