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Introduction of Comprehensive Schools in Northern Ireland watch

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    (Original post by earthmother)
    Well you can argue anything with statistics. The present transfer test means that a large proportion of children in Northern Ireland are written off at 11 years. And yes, A level results are good for a number of reasons. You can look back to my earlier posts.

    But there are too many pupils failed by the Northern Ireland system and something needs to change. LH is wrong. There are no plans for a comprehensive system at the moment, just the abolition of the current transfer test. The whole question is extremely complex.
    I asked that question, because I found LH's one-sided argument rather suspicious. His phrasing was ambiguous and without saying it, suggested that pre-1970s NI schools were not better than British ones and that hence comprehensive schools in Britain are the sole reason for NI's apparent academic superiority.

    To me, that rather smells like spin...
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    (Original post by zizero)
    I asked that question, because I found LH's one-sided argument rather suspicious. His phrasing was ambiguous and without saying it, suggested that pre-1970s NI schools were not better than British ones and that hence comprehensive schools in Britain are the sole reason for NI's apparent academic superiority.

    To me, that rather smells like spin...
    Spin! Moi?

    If the Labour government is still in power in 2008 comprehensives will be introduced, it is naive to think otherwise, this government loves comprehensive education.
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    (Original post by Lord Huntroyde)
    Spin! Moi?

    If the Labour government is still in power in 2008 comprehensives will be introduced, it is naive to think otherwise, this government loves comprehensive education.
    It's only a suspicion... If you want to get it out of the way, perhaps you could elaborate on your earlier statement.

    Were NI schools already better than British ones pre-1970s and the introduction of comprehensive schools in Britain.
    Does the statistical evidence allow for a cause-and-effect conclusion to be drawn? (as your first post suggested)
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    (Original post by zizero)
    It's only a suspicion... If you want to get it out of the way, perhaps you could elaborate on your earlier statement.

    Were NI schools already better than British ones pre-1970s and the introduction of comprehensive schools in Britain.
    Does the statistical evidence allow for a cause-and-effect conclusion to be drawn? (as your first post suggested)
    From the information I can find it seems that exam results of NI compared with the main land where, on the whole, similar.
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    (Original post by Lord Huntroyde)

    If the Labour government is still in power in 2008 comprehensives will be introduced, it is naive to think otherwise, this government loves comprehensive education.
    Erm... If this govt. was as vehemently supportive as you say they were, then GS would've been phased out already. The point is; most of the research done into Grammar/Comprehensive systems suggests that Comps. are better for the majority of pupils.
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    (Original post by Lord Huntroyde)
    From the information I can find it seems that exam results of NI compared with the main land where, on the whole, similar.
    Source?
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    (Original post by Bigcnee)
    Erm... If this govt. was as vehemently supportive as you say they were, then GS would've been phased out already. The point is; most of the research done into Grammar/Comprehensive systems suggests that Comps. are better for the majority of pupils.
    Grammar schools have not been phased out as, rightly or wrongly, there is a lot of support for them.

    If what you say is true, then why do fewer members of the lowest social classes go on to higher education now, now when the class divide has narrowed, than when the country was fully selective?
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    (Original post by Lord Huntroyde)
    If what you say is true, then why do fewer members of the lowest social classes go on to higher education now, now when the class divide has narrowed, than when the country was fully selective?
    Because the system is more diluted now.
    I would dispute this fact in the first place mind you!
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    (Original post by Bigcnee)
    Because the system is more diluted now.
    I would dispute this fact in the first place mind you!
    It is a fact, despite the narrower class gap now than in the 50s/60s, fewer bright children from the lower classes go onto higher education, which means the current education system is failing them because it is these people that education should lift up the most.
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    (Original post by Lord Huntroyde)
    From the information I can find it seems that exam results of NI compared with the main land where, on the whole, similar.
    Source?
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    (Original post by Lord Huntroyde)
    It is a fact, despite the narrower class gap now than in the 50s/60s, fewer bright children from the lower classes go onto higher education, which means the current education system is failing them because it is these people that education should lift up the most.
    Source?
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    (Original post by Bigcnee)
    Source?
    The Times a while ago
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    (Original post by Lord Huntroyde)
    The Times a while ago
    Lol. You're going to have to do better than that!

    Have I unravelled the Lord H. propaganda machine?
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    (Original post by Bigcnee)
    Lol. You're going to have to do better than that!

    Have I unravelled the Lord H. propaganda machine?
    Well I may even have the copy of the said Times in my Bigcnee Counter Arguments file but I can't be very specific on the data, I just saw it and retained it.
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    (Original post by Lord Huntroyde)
    Well I may even have the copy of the said Times in my Bigcnee Counter Arguments file but I can't be very specific on the data, I just saw it and retained it.
    Times natural pro-GS bias + Lord H "recollection" bias + Lord H "retort" bias = Not worth much
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    (Original post by Lord Huntroyde)
    From the information I can find it seems that exam results of NI compared with the main land where, on the whole, similar.
    Source? ...or are you going to admit that you made it up?
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    (Original post by Bigcnee)
    Source? ...or are you going to admit that you made it up?
    I didn't make it up, though I admit it was a callaboration of suggestions rather than a reliable source so should probably be discounted.
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    (Original post by Lord Huntroyde)
    I didn't make it up, though I admit it was a callaboration of suggestions rather than a reliable source so should probably be discounted.
    The source being? :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Bigcnee)
    The source being? :rolleyes:
    Several google searches, several results.
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    (Original post by Lord Huntroyde)
    Judging by exam results, Northern Ireland outperforms mainland Britain and has done since the introduction of comprehensives in the 1970s. Northern Ireland is fully selective, children sit a test at the age of 11.

    However, despite Northern Ireland's academic success, the government plans to inflict comprehensive schools there in 2008. I say this is stupid as this will only bring Northern Ireland's standards down to our level instead of bringing our standards up to theirs.

    It could also be described as undemocratic considering the popularity if selective schools there.

    Is the government right to introduce comprehensives into Northern Ireland?
    It is a ridiculous idea. It would be acceptable if British comprehensives were good, but most are pi** poor.
 
 
 
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