London must become a separate state within the UK Watch

SaucissonSecCy
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I say this not as an elitist Londoner, I don't live there. I also say it in light of the fact the UK and the wishes, culture, and needs of differing parts of it are changing rapidly. More generally, if we don't make serious constitutional change of the kind conservatives are so averse to, we will lose the union, which, weirdly enough, they seem less bothered about(am I'm not judging stated positions and personal feelings as one and the same here). This is perverse to me, given that preserving the union should be the ultimate priority for any real British conservative.
Regarding London, it is clear that whilst it may be British, and linked to the world and the commonwealth, it is not England. Its needs and wishes now differ, culturally, economically it is closer to Paris or New York than it is to Harrogate
It should certainly have as much devolution as Scotland, it's population and identity support it, and I believe Wales and possibly Northern Ireland can be put on a par with that level of autonomy. It could indeed have it's own national football team.
I honestly think most English people would be relieved and pleased if this went through, then London gets more autonomy, they can stop saying everyone drags them down, we can reclaim English identity which differs and we the English can re-invest in and reinvigorate our own cities.
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Mackay
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I don't want an independent London, but I do think that it should be given the same level of devolution as Wales, Northern Ireland or even Scotland.

The rest of England should also have a devolved parliament, well away from London (Manchester or Birmingham, I guess). The UK parliament, with a diminished role, would then remain at Westminster.

This fractured separation would allow London to run its own affairs, while moving new government roles away from London where the power would be, which would help rebalance the whole UK's economy and probably boost growth in the forgotten Northern parts of England which you touch upon.
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SotonianOne
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No. I don't want a joint England with Northerners alone.

I'd be much more content if South East joined this London devolution, or if it wouldn't happen at all.
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SaucissonSecCy
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I think that is more likely anyway. I could see England breaking roughly from the wash to the Bristol channel, including Oxfordshire in the south obviously, with Cornwall having more devolution and being as separate as Wales, and Birmingham, Leicester, Manchester etc all being one nation.
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SHallowvale
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London should become an independent state for the same reasons that the UK should leave the EU.
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SaucissonSecCy
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
London should become an independent state for the same reasons that the UK should leave the EU.
If you're going to imply it's being held back, that's rubbish IMO. If you want an EU analogy for London in the UK, it has the wealth of Germany with the work ethic of and subsidisation of Greece.
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Mackay
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London had a recession, but it didn't last long.

Its economy grew by nearly 12.5% between 2007 and 2011 - twice as fast as the rest of the UK. And the property market barely stopped either.
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SaucissonSecCy
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(Original post by Mackay)
London had a recession, but it didn't last long.

Its economy grew by nearly 12.5% between 2007 and 2011 - twice as fast as the rest of the UK. And the property market barely stopped either.
I'm not disputing that at all. The notion I'd like to challenge is that it's all work ehtic and productivity and the uselessness of people and workforces elsewhere. I maybe went overboard in my previous post, just to counterbalance things, but I think the situation with investment and companies is skewed in London's favour from the start, so they don't have to work the hardest and be the best, for the Capital to win and always be assumed to be doing so. We need to rebalance the country and devolution would help with that.
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
If you're going to imply it's being held back, that's rubbish IMO. If you want an EU analogy for London in the UK, it has the wealth of Germany with the work ethic of and subsidisation of Greece.
No I wasn't going for that. I was going for something like: ''An independent London can:

- Control its own borders. The free movement of people between London and the rest of the UK is putting pressure on housing/transport/schools/etc in London.

- Create its own laws. At the moment Londoners are forced to obey laws created by politicians and English bureaucrats that they didn't vote for.

- Control it's own foreign policy, economic and social. London will be able to create many free trade agreements like Switzerland can, and can remain neutral in international conflicts, like Switzerland. If Switzerland can exist as a successful land-locked country why couldn't London?

- London pays more to the UK than what it gets back. Why should Londoners be paying for this? This money should stay in London.''
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russellsteapot
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On the regional devolution idea, it isn't a bad idea. I think it's still very difficult to balance the needs of the country with the needs of being connected to the capital though.

On the other idea about London becoming properly 'independent' from SHallowvale:

London is successful because it's part of the UK. It's a global city, and the government is smart enough to know that having a global city is sufficient to bring a lot of wealth into the country. So London has been expanded and seen priority funding given to it at the expense of the rest of the UK to ensure it remains a global city.

It's far too easy to see things one-dimensionally. London whirlpools in the wealth from the rest of the country as it's in the UK's global interests to have a city that can compete with New York. The UK government puts everything into London for this reason. An independent London would be like tipping up a container of liquid so it all flows to one side, scooping half the liquid out while it's tipped up, then putting the container back down and pretending the scoop got its water on merit.
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SaucissonSecCy
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
No I wasn't going for that. I was going for something like: ''An independent London can:

- Control its own borders. The free movement of people between London and the rest of the UK is putting pressure on housing/transport/schools/etc in London.

- Create its own laws. At the moment Londoners are forced to obey laws created by politicians and English bureaucrats that they didn't vote for.

- Control it's own foreign policy, economic and social. London will be able to create many free trade agreements like Switzerland can, and can remain neutral in international conflicts, like Switzerland. If Switzerland can exist as a successful land-locked country why couldn't London?

- London pays more to the UK than what it gets back. Why should Londoners be paying for this? This money should stay in London.''
Err, only outside the EU can it control it's own border, free movement of Labour is a fundamental,
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Rakas21
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
No I wasn't going for that. I was going for something like: ''An independent London can:

- Control its own borders. The free movement of people between London and the rest of the UK is putting pressure on housing/transport/schools/etc in London.

'
This is mostly incorrect (though i was suprised too).

What's happening is about 400,000 foreigners are moving to London each year and about 300,000 Londoners are leaving London (mostly for the surrounding counties). Hence the term 'white flight' and why some towns not in Greater London have 80% of their residents employed in London.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
I say this not as an elitist Londoner, I don't live there. I also say it in light of the fact the UK and the wishes, culture, and needs of differing parts of it are changing rapidly. More generally, if we don't make serious constitutional change of the kind conservatives are so averse to, we will lose the union, which, weirdly enough, they seem less bothered about(am I'm not judging stated positions and personal feelings as one and the same here). This is perverse to me, given that preserving the union should be the ultimate priority for any real British conservative.
Regarding London, it is clear that whilst it may be British, and linked to the world and the commonwealth, it is not England. Its needs and wishes now differ, culturally, economically it is closer to Paris or New York than it is to Harrogate
It should certainly have as much devolution as Scotland, it's population and identity support it, and I believe Wales and possibly Northern Ireland can be put on a par with that level of autonomy. It could indeed have it's own national football team.
I honestly think most English people would be relieved and pleased if this went through, then London gets more autonomy, they can stop saying everyone drags them down, we can reclaim English identity which differs and we the English can re-invest in and reinvigorate our own cities.
While i do think London should get at least half its current account surplus (it generates a surplus of about £20bn each year so i'd give it £10bn to spend as it pleases) and i think it should keep more local tax revenues.. i'm generally opposed to policy devolution or the idea of separation. What should happen is the formation of a regional parliament where each region is allocated 1 vote (though there will be 50 Lords each from which that vote is determined) and where a simple majority can then as now defeat parliament.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
No I wasn't going for that. I was going for something like: ''An independent London can:

- Control its own borders. The free movement of people between London and the rest of the UK is putting pressure on housing/transport/schools/etc in London.

- Create its own laws. At the moment Londoners are forced to obey laws created by politicians and English bureaucrats that they didn't vote for.

- Control it's own foreign policy, economic and social. London will be able to create many free trade agreements like Switzerland can, and can remain neutral in international conflicts, like Switzerland. If Switzerland can exist as a successful land-locked country why couldn't London?

- London pays more to the UK than what it gets back. Why should Londoners be paying for this? This money should stay in London.''
What is its energy policy? Is it planning to go nuclear or has oil been discovered under Hyde Park?

Is it planning to have the passport checks at Harrow on the Hill tube station or on Metropolitan line trains?

Is it going to try and negotiate a double taxation treaty or will cross-border workers pay Income tax both in London where they work and Surrey where they live? How much will it have to pay the UK government for this (eg Denmark pays Sweden part of its tax revenues for the workers who work in Copenhagen and live in Skane)?

I think this makes the UK a net food exporter for the first time in 200 years.
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Man.bear.pig
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
It could indeed have it's own national football team.
Is that what this is about?

Anyway your post seems to have a racist undertone to it. You know the part about English identity. So basically you're saying it's too diverse and should float away to France somewhere.

If you so insist but there will still be black and South Asians and Irish people everywhere you go, mate. Have fun running.


(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
real British conservative. it is not England. I honestly think most English people would be relieved and pleased if this went through, we can reclaim English identity which differs and we the English can re-invest in and reinvigorate our own cities.
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SaucissonSecCy
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(Original post by Man.bear.pig)
Is that what this is about?

Anyway your post seems to have a racist undertone to it. You know the part about English identity. So basically you're saying it's too diverse and should float away to France somewhere.

If you so insist but there will still be black and South Asians and Irish people everywhere you go, mate. Have fun running.
No, 'm not saying anything like that. I'm not daft, I know there's other diverse cities.
It's to do with the superiority, imagined and or real, and the fact that it is draining so much and their is such a power imbalance. Federalism and devolution helps that.
I think it would work perfectly well alongside further powers for Scotland, and eventually Wales too and maybe Yorkshire etc.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
No, 'm not saying anything like that. I'm not daft, I know there's other diverse cities.
It's to do with the superiority, imagined and or real, and the fact that it is draining so much and their is such a power imbalance. Federalism and devolution helps that.
I think it would work perfectly well alongside further powers for Scotland, and eventually Wales too and maybe Yorkshire etc.
Wales should become a region of England. They'd retain their parliament but it would settle the question of country or region.
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SaucissonSecCy
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(Original post by Rakas21)
Wales should become a region of England. They'd retain their parliament but it would settle the question of country or region.
That's never going to happen, the Welsh language is growing and they see themselves as a separate nation.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
That's never going to happen, the Welsh language is growing and they see themselves as a separate nation.
The Welsh language is actually apparently declining since 2007 despite the fact that the damned Welsh government has made it mandatory in schools. They may go that way, but there's less support for Plaid and the Greens than there has been in Scotland for the SNP for decades.
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Mackay
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(Original post by Rakas21)
Wales should become a region of England. They'd retain their parliament but it would settle the question of country or region.
Nope. Won't happen. It just literally won't happen. I'm not Welsh, and have no ties to Wales, but that just won't happen. You'll struggle to find anybody on either side of the border who thinks that's a viable option.
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