The Student Room Group

Sanctions and Embargoes should be illegal

There is absolutely no evidence these things lead to positive change in the countries that are effected, on the contrary when sanctions and embargoes are placed on countries the majority of the population suffer from an increasingly repressive regime who use the sanctions as justification for their nationalist rhetoric of self-sufficiency.

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Reply 1
What about Iran? Would they have negotiated without sanctions? How do you suggest we deal with nations that go against international norms? Also if your against embargoes does that include ones on arms?
Reply 2
Original post by Aj12
What about Iran? Would they have negotiated without sanctions? How do you suggest we deal with nations that go against international norms? Also if your against embargoes does that include ones on arms?


We don't deal with nations that go against international norms, it didn't work on Japan, Italy and Nazi Germany, and today look at Russia and Cuba. Has it worked? No. It's making them and their people worse.

We need a more effective way to combat international aggression, possibly an International Armed Forces that consists of all members of the UN.
Reply 3
I agree because it hurts the people and often these sanctions are on countries that are already fairly poor.

Regarding the Russian sanctions...

The way I see it is US created this conflict with Russia in the first place.

They admitted to spending billions in Ukraine on Democracy programs (NGO's) . Leaked phone calls revealed they picked who should be Prime Minister of Ukraine (A banker what a coincidence... ) after taking out a huge debt slavery loan from the IMF...

Democracy? LOL

I'd rather have a dictator who I know loves his country and has the interests of his people in power than a puppet with no mind of his own that simply does as his many advisor's tell him...



It is largely Ukraine's Kiev regime killing people in Eastern-Ukraine. Many are civilians... I'm shocked how silent the Western media are on the civilian loss of life in Ukraine.


Russia simply see's that Ukraine has been hijacked by pro-NATO anti-Russians who threaten their security. How would we react if we were in Russia's situation?

Sanctions are meant to make the people suffer so they get angry at their government and have a coloured revolution. These revolutions are always trouble especially when big money is helping finance them...
Reply 4
Original post by whorace
We don't deal with nations that go against international norms, it didn't work on Japan, Italy and Nazi Germany, and today look at Russia and Cuba. Has it worked? No. It's making them and their people worse.

We need a more effective way to combat international aggression, possibly an International Armed Forces that consists of all members of the UN.



The sanctions on Nazi Germany and Italy were laughable. They did not include oil and did not have the backing of the US, hardly worth considering.

Japan, the sanctions put them in a very difficult position. In the end one of the reasons they went to war was because of the scarcity of oil due to sanctions. Whilst not a success they had to choose between altering their course or going for the most extreme solution, unfortunately they chose the latter.

Sanctions combined with the low oil price have had an impact on Russia, they have damaged the Russian economy. Problem is Russian will to achieve its aims is stronger than that of the countries up against it. In this case what else do you want the International community to do? Sanctions may not be the best option but it is far better than doing nothing, which is the only alternative.

I'll agree on Cuba, US policy towards Cuba has been a joke over the past few decades.

What about Iran?

Interesting article here laying out some areas where sanctions have worked, such as in South Africa. It was written in 08 but Iran should certainly be on the list too.

A UN force is a great idea but it would never be used and is completely impracticable. Sanctions are a flawed option but they have worked in some cases and are not as useless as you make out.
Original post by whorace
We don't deal with nations that go against international norms, it didn't work on Japan, Italy and Nazi Germany, and today look at Russia and Cuba. Has it worked? No. It's making them and their people worse.

We need a more effective way to combat international aggression, possibly an International Armed Forces that consists of all members of the UN.


Sanctions weren't really used to avoid ww2. In fact, they actually pushed Japan to start military action against America.
(edited 8 years ago)
Reply 6
Original post by whorace
There is absolutely no evidence these things lead to positive change in the countries that are effected, on the contrary when sanctions and embargoes are placed on countries the majority of the population suffer from an increasingly repressive regime who use the sanctions as justification for their nationalist rhetoric of self-sufficiency.


I see this as a no win situation.

If we put sanctions on a country then a lot of the time you are right, they don't have the desired effect (they are more like a punishment), other countries don't partake (the reason why cartels don't always work - look at how Saudi Arabia has told Iran and Venezuela where to go regarding cutting oil production) and they can strengthen anti-western sentiment.

With that being said, by not imposing sanctions on somebody who is disobeying you, you are essentially allowing them to get richer which gives them more money for investment and defense ect.. and more leverage with their trading partners.

.....

On the whole i tend to disagree with you. I support western hegemony and i'd rather our opponents were being impoverished than thriving whether they bend to our will or not.

Original post by whorace
We don't deal with nations that go against international norms, it didn't work on Japan, Italy and Nazi Germany, and today look at Russia and Cuba. Has it worked? No. It's making them and their people worse.

We need a more effective way to combat international aggression, possibly an International Armed Forces that consists of all members of the UN.


While i agree with the need for a proper coalition i can't say that it should involve the UN which gives a voice to ~30%+ of members who are not free and fair democracies and has Russia and China on the UNSC. I'd much rather that the USA, France and UK (plus whoever else like Japan) got together and contributed x carriers, x planes and x army personnel and then maintained this as one single force. In instances like Syria we could then say that if all members agree unanimously then it would be deployed.
Reply 7
Original post by Rakas21



While i agree with the need for a proper coalition i can't say that it should involve the UN which gives a voice to ~30%+ of members who are not free and fair democracies and has Russia and China on the UNSC. I'd much rather that the USA, France and UK (plus whoever else like Japan) got together and contributed x carriers, x planes and x army personnel and then maintained this as one single force. In instances like Syria we could then say that if all members agree unanimously then it would be deployed.


We already do its called NATO :biggrin:

It wouldn't work because Russia and China would keep vetoing us, if we got them on board it might reduce suspicion.
Reply 8
Original post by whorace
We already do its called NATO :biggrin:

It wouldn't work because Russia and China would keep vetoing us, if we got them on board it might reduce suspicion.


Yes, but NATO itself rarely acts even though NATO members often do. What i'm proposing is that rather than having the current setup where everybody contributes what they like from their own forces, we have all the countries that want to be involved (say the UK, France and USA) each contribute 10,000 troops, 100 planes and 10 ships to a single combined task-force. That task force would be independent of their normal armed forces.

If we are being honest then China (and India in future decades) are too big to ignore so ideally we'd have them join.. as for Russia i tend to believe that we should not need UN approval to act. The UN is a great forum for creating treaties but it is toothless and our foreign policy in Libya ect.. should certainly not be decided by their veto.
Reply 9
Original post by Rakas21
Yes, but NATO itself rarely acts even though NATO members often do. What i'm proposing is that rather than having the current setup where everybody contributes what they like from their own forces, we have all the countries that want to be involved (say the UK, France and USA) each contribute 10,000 troops, 100 planes and 10 ships to a single combined task-force. That task force would be independent of their normal armed forces.

If we are being honest then China (and India in future decades) are too big to ignore so ideally we'd have them join.. as for Russia i tend to believe that we should not need UN approval to act. The UN is a great forum for creating treaties but it is toothless and our foreign policy in Libya ect.. should certainly not be decided by their veto.


What if we contribute towards a stateless army, all soldiers will renounce their citizenship and become members of the UN forces, when they have finished their term (or want to eventually leave) they'll be given free pick out of all countries.

So say, Russian guy joins the International Army. He's no longer Russian, he's UN and has the choice of any country after completing his service. Soldiers will be awarded citizenship as a reward for their service to the International Community.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by whorace
What if we contribute towards a stateless army, all soldiers will renounce their citizenship and become members of the UN forces, when they have finished their term (or want to eventually leave) they'll be given free pick out of all countries.

So say, Russian guy joins the International Army. He's no longer Russian, he's UN and has the choice of any country after completing his service.


I'd tend to be opposed to that. While it could potentially be effective, our interests are not always aligned with the UN as a whole and i don't want non-western countries having a say.
Original post by whorace
There is absolutely no evidence these things lead to positive change in the countries that are effected, on the contrary when sanctions and embargoes are placed on countries the majority of the population suffer from an increasingly repressive regime who use the sanctions as justification for their nationalist rhetoric of self-sufficiency.


Are you a communist? Only communists would support Cuba. Communist.
Reply 12
Original post by Rakas21
I'd tend to be opposed to that. While it could potentially be effective, our interests are not always aligned with the UN as a whole and i don't want non-western countries having a say.


This mentality is probably going to get us screwed again y'know that right lol. We need integration not nationalism, nationalism has failed twice already.
Reply 13
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
Are you a communist? Only communists would support Cuba. Communist.


Lol

In terms of civil and political rights Cuba is a disgusting mess. In terms of social rights its a disgusting mess. In terms of economic rights its a disgusting mess. It does have a few social benefits (like health care) but that's counteracted by its disgusting treatment of homosexuals etc.

And I never said I supported Cuba, I support the Cuban people not the government.
Original post by whorace
Lol

In terms of civil and political rights Cuba is a disgusting mess. In terms of social rights its a disgusting mess. In terms of economic rights its a disgusting mess. It does have a few social benefits (like health care) but that's counteracted by its disgusting treatment of homosexuals etc.

And I never said I supported Cuba, I support the Cuban people not the government.


communist
(edited 8 years ago)
Reply 15
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
communist


Absolutely not. Communism is holding the Cuban people backwards, once the embargo is lifted the conditions will hopefully improve enough for the emerging middle classes to kick the tossers out.


Original post by ChaoticButterfly

We castrated our homosexuals.


Yeah before human rights took off.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by whorace
Absolutely not. Communism is holding the Cuban people backwards, once the embargo is lifted the conditions will hopefully improve enough for the emerging middle classes to kick the tossers out.


only a communist would propose such an unpatriotic idea
(edited 8 years ago)
Reply 17
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
You are a communist

Also we castrated our homosexuals


Is that you Senator McCarthy?
Original post by whorace
This mentality is probably going to get us screwed again y'know that right lol. We need integration not nationalism, nationalism has failed twice already.


Only if you take the position that the 'west' can't expand it's norms. Over time i'm very much open to the likes of China becoming much more integrated. Since the Asian Tigers are intergrated while having a distinct separate culture (we still share important values and don't have religious problems with them), i don't see why it can't happen with China once the US and China settle into a power dynamic they are both fine with.

Plus to be honest you underestimate the importance of the west even through the next century. By the end of the century, the US and EU will be at worst the 3rd and 4th most powerful. It's not like the Africans are going to catch up to us in any way and we can put off the odd problem with nations like Russia.
Reply 19
Original post by Rakas21
Only if you take the position that the 'west' can't expand it's norms. Over time i'm very much open to the likes of China becoming much more integrated. Since the Asian Tigers are intergrated while having a distinct separate culture (we still share important values and don't have religious problems with them), i don't see why it can't happen with China once the US and China settle into a power dynamic they are both fine with.

Plus to be honest you underestimate the importance of the west even through the next century. By the end of the century, the US and EU will be at worst the 3rd and 4th most powerful. It's not like the Africans are going to catch up to us in any way and we can put off the odd problem with nations like Russia.


Brazil, India, China, Russia, all countries with populations over 100m are going to vastly overtake us if they do the sensible thing and invest in improving their technology and military. The West has always had shortage of people, but previously it has benefited from a strong model of commerce and technology. We had the head start with the Industrial Revolution, but if we don't convince these countries of the rule of law before the time they become rivals, with the rising technology doing things only unimaginable last century, the whole world will be an ugly place next century.

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