DEATH penalty - issue?

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N123456789
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Would you classify the death penalty as a worldwide issue? Thanks.
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SotonianOne
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Well yes because it applies to every country's legal system. Is this a trick question?
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capitalismstinks
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Yes, its an issue for the idiotic countries which abolished it and have seen massive increases in crime rates. Like UK for example.
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aoxa
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(Original post by capitalismstinks)
Yes, its an issue for the idiotic countries which abolished it and have seen massive increases in crime rates. Like UK for example.
There is no real link between crime rates and the death penalty - perhaps the crime rate has gone up, but the homicide rate in the UK has also been falling. Look at the U.S. - they have the death penalty - doesn't stop people from committing crimes and homicides, does it?


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capitalismstinks
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(Original post by aoxa)
There is no real link between crime rates and the death penalty - perhaps the crime rate has gone up, but the homicide rate in the UK has also been falling. Look at the U.S. - they have the death penalty - doesn't stop people from committing crimes and homicides, does it?
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Well, if you compare UK rates, including murder, from before capital punishment was abolished. Then yes, crime has increased dramaticially.

page 14 of this home office PDF shows just how much crime has increased:

http://researchbriefings.parliament....111#fullreport

As for america, America has over 15,000 homicides every year but executes only 50 people a year on average. Obviously, Americas system is not a deterrent.

Capital punishment is not a deterrent unless it is mandatory. Singapore has mandatory system and they have one of the lowest crime rates in the world.
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Truths
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(Original post by capitalismstinks)
Well, if you compare UK rates, including murder, from before capital punishment was abolished. Then yes, crime has increased dramaticially.

page 14 of this home office PDF shows just how much crime has increased:

http://researchbriefings.parliament....111#fullreport

As for america, America has over 15,000 homicides every year but executes only 50 people a year on average. Obviously, Americas system is not a deterrent.

Capital punishment is not a deterrent unless it is mandatory. Singapore has mandatory system and they have one of the lowest crime rates in the world.
I'd take it you didn't even read your own source?

Reported crime peaked in 1992 when 109.4 indictable offenceswere recorded per thousand population. A rising trend inreported crime began in 1954, when the figure was 9.7. Since1992 (to 1997), the rising trend in reported crime has beenreversed. Before 1992, the reported crime rate did not fallsignificantly at any time.
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russellsteapot
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A worldwide issue being an issue the whole world should discuss in the same arena (in the way that, for example, war crimes might be)? Probably not, no.

Globally speaking, it's useful for quickly and easily finding out which countries have uncivilised justice systems, but that's about it. It's a domestic issue for those countries.
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Wellzi
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It's a worldwide issue in the way that it's not as popular as it should be
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Wade-
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(Original post by capitalismstinks)
Yes, its an issue for the idiotic countries which abolished it and have seen massive increases in crime rates. Like UK for example.
That's factually inaccurate. Also evidence from the USA shows that states with the death penalty have a higher murder rate than those who don't


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Hardcore_student
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While i think that people who wrong others should be severely punished, a) being left alive with any guilt you have is often worse than being killed, because if you die it's like you're getting away with it, and b) killing someone as punishment or to set an example normally ends up making both parties looking bad.
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capitalismstinks
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(Original post by Truths)
I'd take it you didn't even read your own source?
Just look at the figures. Is crime today significantly higher than it was when capital punishment existed? The answer is yes across the board.

If you lessen the consequences of the most serious crime, i.e. murder, then by default you have to lessen the consequences of all other crimes -- it would be absurd if the average time in jail for rape was higher than murder after all.

This is why crime goes up so dramatically when nation drastically reduces the consequences of committing crime.
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capitalismstinks
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(Original post by Wade-)
That's factually inaccurate. Also evidence from the USA shows that states with the death penalty have a higher murder rate than those who don't


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Except its factually correct. UK crimes rates are significiantly higher now than in the 1950's.

As for America, it technically has death penalty, but not one sufficient to be deterrent. There are over 15,000 murders every year in the united states, yet they execute only around 50 people. Thats 0.3%

0.3% is not a deterrent effect.
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Zargabaath
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(Original post by capitalismstinks)
Except its factually correct. UK crimes rates are significiantly higher now than in the 1950's.

As for America, it technically has death penalty, but not one sufficient to be deterrent. There are over 15,000 murders every year in the united states, yet they execute only around 50 people. Thats 0.3%

0.3% is not a deterrent effect.
Because correlation = Cause

It definitely couldn't be due to any of the massive changes in society and culture the country has experienced in the last 60 years.

/sarcasm
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Truths
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(Original post by capitalismstinks)
Just look at the figures. Is crime today significantly higher than it was when capital punishment existed?
That could be due to there being more laws, more poverty, more unemployment & austerity, a more expansive and effective police force and so on. But you want to pin it down to the death penalty?
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capitalismstinks
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(Original post by Zargabaath)
Because correlation = Cause

It definitely couldn't be due to any of the massive changes in society and culture the country has experienced in the last 60 years.

/sarcasm

Yes, of course. Massive rise in drug abuse. Massive immigration from the third world. Breakdown of traditional values etc. These things have played a role in breakdown of the UK society.

But, one of the biggest changes was the abolition of capital punishment which dramatically lessened the consequences for committing all crime.

Its basic common sense. If you lessen the consequences of crime then crime increases.

If government gave maximum prison for bank robbery as one week, then every bank in UK would be robbed by this time tomorrow. Extreme example but its at the principle that counts.
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capitalismstinks
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(Original post by Truths)
That could be due to there being more laws, more poverty, more unemployment & austerity, a more expansive and effective police force and so on. But you want to pin it down to the death penalty?
No, i want to say if you lessen the consequences of crime than crime increases. It a basic principle which cannot be logically argued against.

Ending capital punishment dramatically lessened the consequences of crime and not surprisingly, crime went up dramatically. As people predicted at the time.
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Wade-
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(Original post by capitalismstinks)
Except its factually correct. UK crimes rates are significiantly higher now than in the 1950's.

As for America, it technically has death penalty, but not one sufficient to be deterrent. There are over 15,000 murders every year in the united states, yet they execute only around 50 people. Thats 0.3%

0.3% is not a deterrent effect.
So of course that can only be caused by our abolition of the death penalty, definitely no other factors.

Anyone who thinks the death penalty is a deterrent is just delusional, particularly for murder. The circumstances that lead to murder often mean people won't think about the consequences and even if they're sober/calm enough to do so they probably imagine they won't get caught.

If the death penalty is any deterrent it doesn't explain why States without it have a lower murder rate overall than those with the death penalty.

If it's so great at deterring crime then why don't we just make it mandatory for all offences and we'd have next to no crime surely?


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aoxa
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(Original post by capitalismstinks)
Well, if you compare UK rates, including murder, from before capital punishment was abolished. Then yes, crime has increased dramaticially.

page 14 of this home office PDF shows just how much crime has increased:

http://researchbriefings.parliament....111#fullreport

As for america, America has over 15,000 homicides every year but executes only 50 people a year on average. Obviously, Americas system is not a deterrent.

Capital punishment is not a deterrent unless it is mandatory. Singapore has mandatory system and they have one of the lowest crime rates in the world.
As an above poster mentioned, it's obvious you didn't read you own source. Crime has been falling steadily over the past few years.

Besides, a deterrent such as the death penalty will never work - most homicides aren't pre-meditated, if they were, the death penalty might put you off murder. However, as most homicides are not premeditated, and as such, a deterrent such as the death penalty will not work.

Singapore hardly has a great human rights record, so it's barely surprising that thy have a low crime rate.
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capitalismstinks
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(Original post by aoxa)
Singapore hardly has a great human rights record, so it's barely surprising that thy have a low crime rate.
Crime, violent crime especially, is a human rights abuse. Countries with high crime rates are by default low on human rights.

As for crime going down. Going down from when? Yes, apparently, it's been going down from massive peaks in the 90s, but its still dramatically higher than it was before capital punishment was abolished.
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olitheoblong
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(Original post by capitalismstinks)
Crime, violent crime especially, is a human rights abuse. Countries with high crime rates are by default low on human rights.

As for crime going down. Going down from when? Yes, apparently, it's been going down from massive peaks in the 90s, but its still dramatically higher than it was before capital punishment was abolished.
Perhaps it rose so much and is still high due to people feeling more able to report crime. PCSOs who are involved in the community and for friendships are more likely to be told a crime than people going down to a station. I don't know if there are stats and if so I don't have them but that is a possible cause for the rise. Along with large quantities of drugs and therefore drug related crimes/arrests.

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