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So who else is rejecting Oxford?
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At the end of the day, uni choice is always a rather selfish thing. It's not really a time when you think about others, whoever you are and however kind/polite you may be. You look out for number one and do what you can to get the best for yourself and make sure you are happy.
Bekaboo
But whether or not they're trying to do it doesn't change the fact that they are. Don't get me wrong I don't think there's anything wrong with not wanting to go to Oxford and thinking somewhere else is better for you but you can't say that they're not affecting other people's chances.
You can. I don't think how good the other candidates are, for most subjects, has much bearing on whether or not you get in. If there aren't enough good candidates, they'll offer less places, and vice versa. This obviously doesn't work for supplied-constrained subjects that are oversubscribed, but it does for those that have enough tutors. There's definitely enough of a range of potential number of offers for tutors to adapt to some extent, showing it's clearly not a 1:1 ratio (ie. one person getting an offer and rejecting it late does not mean it's one other person who didn't get one, however 2 or 3 people rejected offers late may mean they would have chosen to give an extra offer had they known earlier). If you were to take one offer holder out of the equation, say straight after offers they decline the offer, would the tutors want to give that offer to someone else? It would mean going for a candidate they preferred less, and thus in many cases, that aren't strongly supply-constrained on places, they may decide not to and just give fewer offers.
On the morality point, I think there's even less of an issue. Firstly, if you're *really* good, you're good enough regardless of the competition. Most subjects end up with a range of abilities, few subject/college combinations end up with everyone getting a 1st. This means that if you're really good, ie. clearly capable of getting a first, you should get an offer almost regardless of any competition. This is really a long-winded way of saying that only people at the margin, who were borderline, will be affected by someone getting an offer and declining late. Secondly, if you're good enough to get an offer, it means the tutors thought you were better than anyone who didn't get an offer. Thus there's almost a sentiment of "you've earned it, it's yours to decide whether or not you want".
So my point is threefold: one person getting an offer does not directly mean one other person didn't - while I accept there is a relationship, it is not a pure 1:1 relationship as tutors don't just accept the bext X number of candidates, but adjust this; it only affects people at the borderline, not those who tutors feel are clearly good enough to get an offer; and offers are given to candidates preferred to every rejected candidate for that subject/college. Not that I'm suggested to reject offers late (ie. after the Oxford requested deadline), it's clearly not a good thing to do, but I think that enough people apply not expecting to like it, get an offer and then realise they want to do it having been to interview that you should be encouraged to apply even if you aren't sure it's for you. And also, if you need extra time to decide, perhaps to wait for other offers, then I think as an offer holder it's your right to. Reject it as soon as you're sure it isn't for you, but don't feel pressured to reject it before you've made a clear decision.
Drogue
You can. I don't think how good the other candidates are, for most subjects, has much bearing on whether or not you get in. If there aren't enough good candidates, they'll offer less places, and vice versa. This obviously doesn't work for supplied-constrained subjects that are oversubscribed, but it does for those that have enough tutors.
If they offer less places there won't be enough good candidates?
Seriously, though: a college may give away 12 instead of 10 places for a subject in one year and only 8 in another, but while the number of places available perhaps isn't absolutely fixed, it's still limited - they can raise the number of places by one or two, but not indefinitely. If there are too many good applicants, some of them will simply have to be turned away.
Drogue
So my point is threefold: one person getting an offer does not directly mean one other person didn't - while I accept there is a relationship, it is not a pure 1:1 relationship as tutors don't just accept the bext X number of candidates, but adjust this; it only affects people at the borderline,
So my point is threefold: one person getting an offer does not directly mean one other person didn't - while I accept there is a relationship, it is not a pure 1:1 relationship as tutors don't just accept the bext X number of candidates, but adjust this; it only affects people at the borderline,
Sorry Drogue, but this is utterly wrong. Subjects do have pretty well fixed quotas in each college - it goes roughly by the number of tutors (look at the numbers in any college, any subject, year on year). All subjects are so oversubscribed that the margin of how many places there are is way more restrictive than who's marginal on ability. If there's a real ace, a college might squeeze an extra place, but that doesn't change the overall picture.
Anybody who dumps an offer really has cut out somebody else good who might have had it.
DtS
It is the same at any university. My undergraduate university gives out around 2300 offers for 1600 places. That's less than two offers per place. However I have never considered that someone who got in and decided to go somewhere else had "cut out somebody else good." Everyone who has an offer to Oxford has just as much right to turn it down as everyone who has an offer to any other university.
If you really don't like it, then why don't you suggest to your college's tutors or whoever that Oxford take a "waitlist" approach for those poor suffering geniuses who are supposedly suffering at Durham now because someone go into Oxford and decided not to go there! Otherwise, just accept that people have different desires, and you can't guilt a person into going to Oxford just because they have a place. It's their life.
If you really don't like it, then why don't you suggest to your college's tutors or whoever that Oxford take a "waitlist" approach for those poor suffering geniuses who are supposedly suffering at Durham now because someone go into Oxford and decided not to go there! Otherwise, just accept that people have different desires, and you can't guilt a person into going to Oxford just because they have a place. It's their life.
Hello again
I just thought I should post a slightly more moderate message and say that I hope nobody took offence at might rather negative tone towards London.
I noticed that somebody (the message about the US B+ compared to Oxford A) said that not everybody wants to be an academic and that an Oxford (Oxbridge) education is not necessarily the best preparation for life as an accountant or solicitor. Interesting point! Actually, I rather suspect that for those wanting to go into what I think of as boring jobs that make lots of money, an Oxford or Cambridge degree is possibly more useful than it is in academia. In academic circles people will go to the trouble of finding out how academically acute somebody really is and won't judge them on the basis of where their first degree was from. I knew people doing masters/doctoral degrees at Oxford who had been to UCL, LSE, Warwick, Newcastle, Duke, Yale, Durham. The LSE person was insistent that LSE was as good as, and probably better than, Oxford. The UCL person was sure that Oxford was immeasurably better than UCL. The person who had degrees from both Yale and Duke thought that the important thing was to get a degree from a British university: he claimed that in the US degrees from even the best US universities are regarded as inferior to British qualifications. That seems rather a strange idea to me, especially as we in Britain are forever comparing ourselves with America and lamenting that our universities aren't as good as Harvard.
Well, the point is, that if one wants to go into accountancy or law, I've been told, by Oxbridge and non-Oxbridge graduates, that there is a huge bias in favour of Oxbridge graduates. In academia, I don't think anybody is going to look down on a brilliant scholar because his or her first degree was from somewhere other than Oxford or Cambridge. Indeed, some of the top scholars at Oxford have got their first degrees elsewhere. Peter Atkins went to Leicester, Keith Ward went to Cardiff, and GEM de Ste Croix went to UCL (and interestingly he didn't start his degree until he was 40, having left school at 15 and become a solicitor).
I'm sure that in every respect going to university in London can be a good experience and won't be an impediment for the rest of your life. Personally, I would recommend Oxford (or Cambridge - though I don't really know it) over London, but many people go to Oxford and make nothing of it, so better to go to London and work hard and potentially end up more successful than lazy people who went to Oxford just to have a good time.
Oh, and about the Pimms and punting, I've been punting twice - once on a visit to Oxford before I had even applied, and once after finals. I seem to think that I had Pimms at some time. I certainly had Pimms before going to Oxford but I can't remember a specific event at Oxford where I had it. The main drink I had was instant coffee (fairtrade of course) in polystyrene cups, until the JCR decided that for the benefit of the environment members were expected to bring their own cup or mug to the JCR.
I just thought I should post a slightly more moderate message and say that I hope nobody took offence at might rather negative tone towards London.
I noticed that somebody (the message about the US B+ compared to Oxford A) said that not everybody wants to be an academic and that an Oxford (Oxbridge) education is not necessarily the best preparation for life as an accountant or solicitor. Interesting point! Actually, I rather suspect that for those wanting to go into what I think of as boring jobs that make lots of money, an Oxford or Cambridge degree is possibly more useful than it is in academia. In academic circles people will go to the trouble of finding out how academically acute somebody really is and won't judge them on the basis of where their first degree was from. I knew people doing masters/doctoral degrees at Oxford who had been to UCL, LSE, Warwick, Newcastle, Duke, Yale, Durham. The LSE person was insistent that LSE was as good as, and probably better than, Oxford. The UCL person was sure that Oxford was immeasurably better than UCL. The person who had degrees from both Yale and Duke thought that the important thing was to get a degree from a British university: he claimed that in the US degrees from even the best US universities are regarded as inferior to British qualifications. That seems rather a strange idea to me, especially as we in Britain are forever comparing ourselves with America and lamenting that our universities aren't as good as Harvard.
Well, the point is, that if one wants to go into accountancy or law, I've been told, by Oxbridge and non-Oxbridge graduates, that there is a huge bias in favour of Oxbridge graduates. In academia, I don't think anybody is going to look down on a brilliant scholar because his or her first degree was from somewhere other than Oxford or Cambridge. Indeed, some of the top scholars at Oxford have got their first degrees elsewhere. Peter Atkins went to Leicester, Keith Ward went to Cardiff, and GEM de Ste Croix went to UCL (and interestingly he didn't start his degree until he was 40, having left school at 15 and become a solicitor).
I'm sure that in every respect going to university in London can be a good experience and won't be an impediment for the rest of your life. Personally, I would recommend Oxford (or Cambridge - though I don't really know it) over London, but many people go to Oxford and make nothing of it, so better to go to London and work hard and potentially end up more successful than lazy people who went to Oxford just to have a good time.
Oh, and about the Pimms and punting, I've been punting twice - once on a visit to Oxford before I had even applied, and once after finals. I seem to think that I had Pimms at some time. I certainly had Pimms before going to Oxford but I can't remember a specific event at Oxford where I had it. The main drink I had was instant coffee (fairtrade of course) in polystyrene cups, until the JCR decided that for the benefit of the environment members were expected to bring their own cup or mug to the JCR.
Derek_the_Sheep
Actually, there is. I've seen colleges offer 4x as many places one year as the next, due to the strength of candidates. I've even seen colleges give out no offers one year as no-one met their requirements. There are flexible quotas, as I said, due to the number of tutors, but with much tuition done outside college, it's more of a finance issue. And this is flexible - if the tutor wants to offer more places and is willing to teach more students, they can do. The system is surprisingly flexible.
Even for E&M, which is (IIRC?) the most oversubscribed major subject (ie. that has places at most colleges), I've seen *huge* variation in the number of offers given because of aptitude. Even being that oversubscribed there still may not be enough able candidates - I've seen one 10:1 applicants per place and still they cut the number of places from the amount they'd have liked to give, due to not having enough able candidates.
It is nowhere near a 1:1 ratio, though as I said, there is some form of quotas, although they are flexible. So one person rejecting an offer will affect others chances, as there is competition between applicants, but it is not one person rejecting an offer means one other person didn't get one, as I've seen tutors decide to cut or raise the number of places due to the ability of applicants by quite considerable percentages. I'm not talking about this in abstract, I've actually seen changes that are in large percentages - colleges with 1 place for E&M giving 4 offers, colleges with 3 places giving 1 or even none.
hobnob
If they offer less places there won't be enough good candidates?
Seriously, though: a college may give away 12 instead of 10 places for a subject in one year and only 8 in another, but while the number of places available perhaps isn't absolutely fixed, it's still limited - they can raise the number of places by one or two, but not indefinitely. If there are too many good applicants, some of them will simply have to be turned away.
Seriously, though: a college may give away 12 instead of 10 places for a subject in one year and only 8 in another, but while the number of places available perhaps isn't absolutely fixed, it's still limited - they can raise the number of places by one or two, but not indefinitely. If there are too many good applicants, some of them will simply have to be turned away.
Yes, exactly. However it is, from my experience, a little more flexible than just 10-12. Variations have gone from 8 one year to 15 the next for some larger subjects I've seen. The point is that yes it affects people, but it is not a strict 1 person rejects late has denied someone else an offer. It's an aggregate effect only.
shady lane
It is the same at any university. My undergraduate university gives out around 2300 offers for 1600 places. That's less than two offers per place. However I have never considered that someone who got in and decided to go somewhere else had "cut out somebody else good." Everyone who has an offer to Oxford has just as much right to turn it down as everyone who has an offer to any other university.
I don't think people are objecting just to this with oxbridge. Many people on the econ forum had a go at people who didn't turn down Warwick, Bristol or Nottingham offers when they got offers from LSE/UCL/Oxbridge.
shady lane
Otherwise, just accept that people have different desires, and you can't guilt a person into going to Oxford just because they have a place. It's their life.
Nobody is doing that. The issue is that people are asked to reject, if they are going to, within a month or so, so places, if desired, can be offered to others. While it's not a requirement to, and if you haven't decided yet (waiting on another offer perhaps) I think it is ok to wait, but generally you should try and reply by the time they ask you to reply. It's not about people deciding to go elsewhere, but people deciding to go elsewhere and not telling the college that so they can see if they'd like to offer more places.I'm wondering how many people are refuting my "Pimms and punting" comment are 1st years who haven't experienced an Oxford spring time. May Day is one of the biggest Oxford traditions and involves drinking and the Isis. The May Eights (that's what it's called right) is a drinking and boatie fest as well. I was told by a lecturer that something like 65% of the world's Pimm's is consumed in Oxford!
I've never heard "May Eights" - it's always been "Summer Eights". Certainly Eights Week tends to be very Pimmsish as even non-boaties go down to watch for a day and support their friends. But I'd say Oxford summertime isn't hugely "Pimms and punting" for most people - certainly it's not compulsory if you're not into it and there is plenty else to do.
shady lane
I'm wondering how many people are refuting my "Pimms and punting" comment are 1st years who haven't experienced an Oxford spring time. May Day is one of the biggest Oxford traditions and involves drinking and the Isis. The May Eights (that's what it's called right) is a drinking and boatie fest as well. I was told by a lecturer that something like 65% of the world's Pimm's is consumed in Oxford!
Surely thats not a bad thing?
And for someone who never went to Oxford, and is quick to give reasons why other institutions are better, you seem to know ALOT about Oxford. And you post in this subforum more than alot of oxonians!
DumberChild
Surely thats not a bad thing?
And for someone who never went to Oxford, and is quick to give reasons why other institutions are better, you seem to know ALOT about Oxford. And you post in this subforum more than alot of oxonians!
And for someone who never went to Oxford, and is quick to give reasons why other institutions are better, you seem to know ALOT about Oxford. And you post in this subforum more than alot of oxonians!
If you read her posts you'd realise she did go to Oxford for 6 months in an exchange or something.
I was there for 6 months 
And sorry, it's Summer Eights. It was in May when I was there, got it confused with May Day I guess!
I'm not saying Pimms is bad. I'm saying that those things are not the ideal social activities for everyone. The May Day bop at Magdalen in 2005 was only saved by the alcohol--they would only play rock and when my friend and I asked for hip hop the DJ said, "people here don't like that kind of music, they can't dance." So you can imagine that as someone who likes R&B clubs, this kind of party is not ideal at all.
And sorry, it's Summer Eights. It was in May when I was there, got it confused with May Day I guess!
I'm not saying Pimms is bad. I'm saying that those things are not the ideal social activities for everyone. The May Day bop at Magdalen in 2005 was only saved by the alcohol--they would only play rock and when my friend and I asked for hip hop the DJ said, "people here don't like that kind of music, they can't dance." So you can imagine that as someone who likes R&B clubs, this kind of party is not ideal at all.
shady lane
That's really all a Magdalen thing. We do drink Pimms in the summer, but it's a very small thing for most colleges. Most students I know go punting once or twice a summer. Magdalen, having its own punts and its own punt house, does a lot more of this than anyone else. Also being a rather traditional college with its own traditions leads to that a bit.
I take your point about the bop though - most people here don't listen to RnB or Hip Hop, so there are only a few such club nights and most pops play cheese or rock. I guess it's just a majority thing.
Is pimms and punting really a bad thing? It's just an Oxford tradition, that you don't HAVE to join in with if you don't want to....(and yes, i realise I'm only a student with an offer, no real experience etc etc, but I'm not really too fussed if people want to do that or not, doesn't mean I have to do it with them lol)
Derek_the_Sheep
Sorry Drogue, but this is utterly wrong. Subjects do have pretty well fixed quotas in each college - it goes roughly by the number of tutors (look at the numbers in any college, any subject, year on year). All subjects are so oversubscribed that the margin of how many places there are is way more restrictive than who's marginal on ability. If there's a real ace, a college might squeeze an extra place, but that doesn't change the overall picture.
Anybody who dumps an offer really has cut out somebody else good who might have had it.
DtS
Anybody who dumps an offer really has cut out somebody else good who might have had it.
DtS
No, I think Drogue is right. In my college/subject, there are 6 first-years and 14 second-years. There was no change in staffing over this time.
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