Labour was too left Watch

whorace
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Well for a start here are the votes between the Tories and Labour in the 2015 general election
11,334,576
9,347,304

That's 9.3 million votes so lets get a grip here a moment about Labour being dead.

Here is the 2010 general election results
10,703,654
8,606,517

So both parties increased by roughly 600,00 votes.

There were two parties running an anti-austerity platform, the SNP and Greens

The SNP got
1,454,436

And in 2010 they got
491,386

That's an increase of almost 1 million

The Green party got[*]1,157,613

Then we consider the Lib Dems
2010 -
6,836,248

2015 -
2,415,862

That's a staggering 4.4 million votes lost

Plus there was the UKIP vote which cut into the Labour vote mostly in the North[*] [*]3,881,099 total votes taken.


And we know the Tories took the most from the Lib Dems as they had a similiar platform.

It looks to me like the Labour party weren't left enough!
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gladders
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Honestly, I don't get why people consider Labour left wing. I certainly couldn't see a thing they did that was. I suspect it's a matter of the Tories and the right-wing press saying it, but Miliband and Labour being too timid to either deny it outright, or jolly well embracing it.

So they put off right-wing people by not fighting the left-wing label, and put off left-wing people by appearing to be ashamed of being left-wing.

Hence why they were crushed in Scotland, where the SNP capitalised on Labour being called 'red tories'.
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username878267
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(Original post by gladders)
Honestly, I don't get why people consider Labour left wing. I certainly couldn't see a thing they did that was. I suspect it's a matter of the Tories and the right-wing press saying it, but Miliband and Labour being too timid to either deny it outright, or jolly well embracing it.

So they put off right-wing people by not fighting the left-wing label, and put off left-wing people by appearing to be ashamed of being left-wing.

Hence why they were crushed in Scotland, where the SNP capitalised on Labour being called 'red tories'.
Because our country is hugely influenced by the very right wing press who are essentially the propaganda wing of the tory party.
Thus anything centrist or slightly left of centre is labelled as 'far left' or 'looney lefty'
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gladders
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(Original post by Bornblue)
Because our country is hugely influenced by the very right wing press who are essentially the propaganda wing of the tory party.
Thus anything centrist or slightly left of centre is labelled as 'far left' or 'looney lefty'
I think that's too lazy and feeble an excuse. The press has some effect, yes, but people are capable of independent thought and learning of things through different sources. After all, a clear majority of votes didn't vote Conservative.
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username878267
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(Original post by gladders)
I think that's too lazy and feeble an excuse. The press has some effect, yes, but people are capable of independent thought and learning of things through different sources. After all, a clear majority of votes didn't vote Conservative.
I don't at all.
The press set the agenda and massively helped the tories peddle the utter myth that labour overspent and the tories are fiscally responsible. Tirelessly scrutinizing and lying about Labour and Miliband while fully supporting the tories.
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gladders
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(Original post by Bornblue)
I don't at all.
The press set the agenda and massively helped the tories peddle the utter myth that labour overspent and the tories are fiscally responsible. Tirelessly scrutinizing and lying about Labour and Miliband while fully supporting the tories.
But the public have a long tradition of taking the press with somewhat a pinch of salt, and of reading multiple sources of news, as well as comparing views with each other. I don't subscribe to the 'media brainwashing' conspiracy theory.

Yes, there's a very vocal and widespread majority of the press that sympathises with the Tories and does its level best to show them in a positive light. But then there's a ton for the left, as well.
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username878267
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(Original post by gladders)
But the public have a long tradition of taking the press with somewhat a pinch of salt, and of reading multiple sources of news, as well as comparing views with each other. I don't subscribe to the 'media brainwashing' conspiracy theory.

Yes, there's a very vocal and widespread majority of the press that sympathises with the Tories and does its level best to show them in a positive light. But then there's a ton for the left, as well.
The right wing media is far wealthier and more powerful.
If you're a builder you read the sun, for instant. Or if you're not that intellectual you read the Daily Mail.

The media has a massive effect. It frames the debate in this country and it really does act as the propoganda wing of the tory party.

Of course that's not the only reason why Labour lost, but the huge role of the media underpins most reasons why Labour lost.
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gladders
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(Original post by Bornblue)
The right wing media is far wealthier and more powerful.
If you're a builder you read the sun, for instant. Or if you're not that intellectual you read the Daily Mail.

The media has a massive effect. It frames the debate in this country and it really does act as the propoganda wing of the tory party.

Of course that's not the only reason why Labour lost, but the huge role of the media underpins most reasons why Labour lost.
As I said, it's a case of Labour being too timid to contradict the press, rather than the widespread public just swallowing what is on a page in front of it.

The right may have money, but the left has plenty of strengths, including its dominance of social media. Of course that's a double-edged sword: it led to many people overestimating the left wing feeling of the country because of the confirmation bias of social media.
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HigherMinion
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(Original post by Bornblue)
Because our country is hugely influenced by the very right wing press who are essentially the propaganda wing of the tory party.
Thus anything centrist or slightly left of centre is labelled as 'far left' or 'looney lefty'
>right wing
>Conservative party

pick one.
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TheTechN1304
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(Original post by Bornblue)
The right wing media is far wealthier and more powerful.
If you're a builder you read the sun, for instant. Or if you're not that intellectual you read the Daily Mail.
The Sun supports whoever the stronger looking candidate is. In 1997 they supported Blair. Don't act as if we should pity the left-wing media. To say they are weak would be a complete lie. The Guardian is a very established paper for one.

The media has a massive effect. It frames the debate in this country and it really does act as the propoganda wing of the tory party.

Of course that's not the only reason why Labour lost, but the huge role of the media underpins most reasons why Labour lost.
Yes the media has an effect, but don't over-exaggerate the impact it plays. Labour lost due to the fact that they had a weak leader and didn't identify and target key voters. The only people they appealed to were students who believe we live in a utopia where the government should provide for all, but unfortunately for Labour, students are the least likely to vote.

Because our country is hugely influenced by the very right wing press who are essentially the propaganda wing of the tory party.
Thus anything centrist or slightly left of centre is labelled as 'far left' or 'looney lefty'
You're doing it there with the right. Hypocritical much? 'The very right wing press'. The UK doesn't have any 'very right wing press'. There is no equivalent here of Fox News. If you want 'very right wing' check out them before commenting on our media.

Labour lost the election because they moved too far left. They didn't appeal to the rich, they didn't appeal to those in the middle, they appealed to those at the bottom. The middle is where they should've aimed, and that means not diverging massively from Blair and staying in the centre.
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username878267
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(Original post by TheTechN1304)
The Sun supports whoever the stronger looking candidate is. In 1997 they supported Blair. Don't act as if we should pity the left-wing media. To say they are weak would be a complete lie. The Guardian is a very established paper for one.



Yes the media has an effect, but don't over-exaggerate the impact it plays. Labour lost due to the fact that they had a weak leader and didn't identify and target key voters. The only people they appealed to were students who believe we live in a utopia where the government should provide for all, but unfortunately for Labour, students are the least likely to vote.



You're doing it there with the right. Hypocritical much? 'The very right wing press'. The UK doesn't have any 'very right wing press'. There is no equivalent here of Fox News. If you want 'very right wing' check out them before commenting on our media.

Labour lost the election because they moved too far left. They didn't appeal to the rich, they didn't appeal to those in the middle, they appealed to those at the bottom. The middle is where they should've aimed, and that means not diverging massively from Blair and staying in the centre.
Except labour wasn't left wing at all. The press just scared people into thinking they were.
I wish labour were half as left wing as people seem to think they are.
Being left of the Tories and the rabidly right wing press does not equal left.
Labour supported austerity Ffs. How on earth is that left wing? Labour offered no real left wing alternative or reforms to the financial sector. How is that left wing? They did not advocate renationalising any major industries. How was that left wing?
They had a few nice lefty policies but they were really just a slightly nicer version of the Tories , not some radical left wing party.
Believe me, I wish they were but they're not and to say they are proves just how powerful our biased and right wing media is.
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illegaltobepoor
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Everyone on national television is shouting Labour is too left-wing and need to become right-wing. The result will be a Labour puppet leader who claims to speak for the working class but is basically a con man who excels at extracting wealth from the working class while throwing them a few carrots.

It could be a whole range of freebies.

The same thing happens in the Tory party where there is spending that is slashed and the rich are given lucrative contracts. In both cases freebies are given to either the rich or the poor but the majority of workers are always screwed. This happens every 15 or so years. It rotates and the voters are non the wiser because people die and youngsters are given false promises which they fall for.

The internet though is making things more difficult for the con men. A lot of young people are getting into politics very early and are becoming class aware.

During my time in school there wasn't anything like Facebook. The internet was a collection of amateur websites which was dominated by Microsofts MSN and Yahoo which for the most part where big corporate entities. The internet has changed so much though and has became a place where human thought and consciousnesses has expanded to the point where corporations have no monopoly on what people think.

On online forums people are often more inclined to support UKIP and the Greens. We have a mix of Libertarianism and Progressive Socialism going on. This is the kind of healthy political divide we need because the result tends to be a compromise between good economic policy and social justice.

You know your getting screwed when you have 2 political parties which repeat the same stuff over and over again and just end up benefiting big business. This is exactly what we have and its the key reason why I think everyone should abandon Labour and the Tories.
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balanced
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(Original post by whorace)
Well for a start here are the votes between the Tories and Labour in the 2015 general election
11,334,576
9,347,304

That's 9.3 million votes so lets get a grip here a moment about Labour being dead.

Here is the 2010 general election results
10,703,654
8,606,517

So both parties increased by roughly 600,00 votes.

There were two parties running an anti-austerity platform, the SNP and Greens

The SNP got
1,454,436

And in 2010 they got
491,386

That's an increase of almost 1 million

The Green party got[*]1,157,613

Then we consider the Lib Dems
2010 -
6,836,248

2015 -
2,415,862

That's a staggering 4.4 million votes lost

Plus there was the UKIP vote which cut into the Labour vote mostly in the North[*] [*]3,881,099 total votes taken.


And we know the Tories took the most from the Lib Dems as they had a similiar platform.

It looks to me like the Labour party weren't left enough!
The centre-left voters of labour went to ukip
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saayagain
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Of course they weren't left wing enough. You can't out tory the tories.

They should left or die.
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anarchism101
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(Original post by gladders)
Honestly, I don't get why people consider Labour left wing. I certainly couldn't see a thing they did that was. I suspect it's a matter of the Tories and the right-wing press saying it, but Miliband and Labour being too timid to either deny it outright, or jolly well embracing it.

So they put off right-wing people by not fighting the left-wing label, and put off left-wing people by appearing to be ashamed of being left-wing.

Hence why they were crushed in Scotland, where the SNP capitalised on Labour being called 'red tories'.
Nail on the head. Miliband was being denounced as too left-wing by the old Blairites, the Tories and the right-wing media before he'd even announced policies.

What actually ended up was a campaign of constant apologetics for someone or other. Not so much directly taking the Tories on but merely appealing that Labour would stop their 'excesses'. Every step of the way they allowed the Tories to define the narrative, and then made minor deviations from it.
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anarchism101
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(Original post by whorace)
Plus there was the UKIP vote which cut into the Labour vote mostly in the North[*] [*]3,881,099 total votes taken.
Hearing this taken for granted a lot, but the problem with it is that Labour generally didn't lose votes in these constituencies (or at least, not many). Labour candidates in Northern England (and to a lesser extent, England as a whole) generally saw minor gains, minor losses, or stayed about the same. For example, in Heywood and Middleton, which saw the fourth-highest UKIP vote in the country, Labour's vote increased by 3%.
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The_Mighty_Bush
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(Original post by saayagain)
Of course they weren't left wing enough. You can't out tory the tories.

They should left or die.
If by "out tory the tories" you mean be more rightwing than the Tories then obviously you can.
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Quady
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(Original post by anarchism101)
Hearing this taken for granted a lot, but the problem with it is that Labour generally didn't lose votes in these constituencies (or at least, not many). Labour candidates in Northern England (and to a lesser extent, England as a whole) generally saw minor gains, minor losses, or stayed about the same. For example, in Heywood and Middleton, which saw the fourth-highest UKIP vote in the country, Labour's vote increased by 3%.
Pretty impossible to know. Nobody knows where the votes moved to/from.
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Mackay
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Labour failed to provide a credible alternative in a time in which the public were practically begging for one. Labour have themselves to blame - and I say this as somebody who voted for them.
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KimKallstrom
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(Original post by Mackay)
Labour failed to provide a credible alternative in a time in which the public were practically begging for one. Labour have themselves to blame - and I say this as somebody who voted for them.
Correct. It's my view also that the country wanted to vote away the Conservative Party....but couldn't vote Labour this time round.

I said it at the time - Conservatives did not win the election; Labour lost it.

Look, in 2015 you'll never win an election based on class warfare rhetoric. It's archaic nonsense that only students who have never had a proper job and trade union dinosaurs buy into. So basically nobody in the real world.

You can talk all you like about how Labour didn't have left wing policies but when the rhetoric and the stance is what it is in this campaign it doesn't matter (though lol if you think policies like capping of energy prices, mansion tax and rent control are not left wing. Just lol....,)
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