How many Indians are worth a Slave?

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Jjj90
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A question.

How does the emancipation of the slaves and subsequent abolition of slavery across the United States manage to dwarf the annihilation and destruction of the native Americans?

Why are the north the 'good' guys despite blackmailing, murdering, bribing, plundering and starving the native Indians en-masse? This all happened under the stars and stripes from Washington.

This strikes me as the most abhorrent hypocrisy in history and the ultimate proof that history is indeed written by the winners.
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DJKL
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(Original post by Jjj90)
A question.

How does the emancipation of the slaves and subsequent abolition of slavery across the United States manage to dwarf the annihilation and destruction of the native Americans?

Why are the north the 'good' guys despite blackmailing, murdering, bribing, plundering and starving the native Indians en-masse? This all happened under the stars and stripes from Washington.

This strikes me as the most abhorrent hypocrisy in history and the ultimate proof that history is indeed written by the winners.
Of course whilst they did all these things to the Native Americans they actually did most of the damage far earlier by landing, founding colonies and bringing diseases to the Americas, I am prepared to stand corrected but I think more Native Americans died from imported disease than those who died from the above list.

By the time of westward expansion the Native American populations were already greatly reduced, I suspect a lot of the damage happened before the stars and stripes was invented.

Also I am not sure it is ignored as such, whilst certainly when I was at university in the 1980s the Native Americans did not feature heavily within the syllabus, there was far more on slavery and indentured servitude when considering labour, this is partly because the Native Americans were not really used as labour. It sounds unfair to nearly ignore them, it is unfair, but in reviewing the big picture from circa 1600-1930s they were not one of the factors of production, land, labour and capital (albeit the land they had previously occupied/used was) The other reason they did not feature heavily is possibly a lack of written records.

I believe universities these days do include more about them, this is possibly to do with the increased use of oral histories and a greater emphasis in general, within history teaching, on the discussion of colonies and empire and their longer term historical impact., the effects of which we see daily within the news.
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capitalismstinks
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If history was written by the winners than this post would not even exist, because it is complete Marxist rewriting of history.

These native populations were literally cut off from the rest of civilisation which was centred around Middle East, North Africa, Asia and Europe.

Native population pre European landing was about 5 to 7 million. Over 90% died because of disease they were not Immune to. But if you want to call it genocide then you have to accept that the plague which wiped out one third of Europe was a genocide, because it was brought over by people from Asia.

The displacement of native Indians came much later when America became a country in itself, and wanted to expand its borders.
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41b
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(Original post by capitalismstinks)
If history was written by the winners than this post would not even exist, because it is complete Marxist rewriting of history.

These native populations were literally cut off from the rest of civilisation which was centred around Middle East, North Africa, Asia and Europe.

Native population pre European landing was about 5 to 7 million. Over 90% died because of disease they were not Immune to. But if you want to call it genocide then you have to accept that the plague which wiped out one third of Europe was a genocide, because it was brought over by people from Asia.

The displacement of native Indians came much later when America became a country in itself, and wanted to expand its borders.
I think it's about 90 million that died in all of the Americas over the centuries before they became Mestizo/Mulatto etc, from factors like being worked to death in mines run by Catholics who were later sainted, as well as the ever attendant disease (which might have been resisted had it not been for the work to death regime run by the Spanish).

The Protestants didn't use them as slaves but just shot or dispossessed them.

Christians lost their moral high ground entirely during this period, and what the Brits did in India later on was seriously damnable. In my view Empire is the reason that cultural marxism was so successful - the moral basis of the West was destroyed by a truly exploitative and evil Empire, and so it wasn't very difficult for SJWs to tear apart domestic Christianity (which served no other purpose than providing morality - the spiritual mission (which, e.g. Islam has) of creating a better world for those on Earth was totally lost).
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viddy9
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(Original post by capitalismstinks)
If history was written by the winners than this post would not even exist, because it is complete Marxist rewriting of history.
These native populations were literally cut off from the rest of civilisation which was centred around Middle East, North Africa, Asia and Europe.
Native population pre European landing was about 5 to 7 million. Over 90% died because of disease they were not Immune to. But if you want to call it genocide then you have to accept that the plague which wiped out one third of Europe was a genocide, because it was brought over by people from Asia.
The displacement of native Indians came much later when America became a country in itself, and wanted to expand its borders.
Most did die due to disease, but there were many intentional genocidal events perpetrated against the Native Americans, and the settler-colonialist system of the Europeans was completely immoral in itself.

50 to 100 million Native Americans were living in North, Central and South America before the arrival of the Europeans, and more than 10 million of these were living in North America.

There's no rewriting of history. It's just that some people prefer to engage in genocide-denial when it suits them.

(Original post by Jjj90)
A question.
How does the emancipation of the slaves and subsequent abolition of slavery across the United States manage to dwarf the annihilation and destruction of the native Americans?
Why are the north the 'good' guys despite blackmailing, murdering, bribing, plundering and starving the native Indians en-masse? This all happened under the stars and stripes from Washington.
This strikes me as the most abhorrent hypocrisy in history and the ultimate proof that history is indeed written by the winners.
The genocide of the Native Americans was indeed written out of history, but those living in the American South are hardly likely to complain about this either.
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Observatory
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The Native Americans weren't annihilated and destroyed. There are millions of them living in the US today, not even including the mixed settlers - many also without legal status under the US laws - coming in from Mexico. Many of those are living in quasi-autonomous regions. The US's wars with the Indians were never about annihilation as such, they were about asserting land claims and subsequently protecting settled land from raids. When the Indians became too weak to threaten the US way of life any longer, the US did not use their weakness as an opportunity to finish them off completely. Instead, it started subsidising them.

What happened further south in the Americas was of course quite different.
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capitalismstinks
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(Original post by 41b)
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Ok, instead of refuting your points, i will just ask you some questions. Is the Islamic world evil because of its history of imperialism and slavery? A history of imperialism and slavery which stretches back far longer than Christian Europeans?

As a social justice warrior, why do you erase literally centuries of history to suit your agenda? Why do construct a narrative of history from selctive and cherry picked events which are taken out of context?

Why are social justice warriors so knowledgable on the faults of the Western society, but so ignorant of its achievements?

More importantly, why are you so obsessed with defining western society through its faults and not its achievements, when you do the exact opposite to all other civilisations? Such as Islamic history which i mentioned above.
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capitalismstinks
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(Original post by viddy9)
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Where do the Indian tribes who fought next to the European settlers for the purposes of destroying their tribal enemies fit into this?

Your 10 million plus number is simply false. It was 7 million maximum in North America.

No one is denying genocide, but genocide simply did not take place. Massacres happened during war tin this period, the largest of which totalled no more than 250 people. But massacres are not genocides.

Most Indians were wiped out by disease which they were not immune to. Again, if you want to call this genocide then the plague brought to Europe by Asians which wiped out one third of Europe was also a genocide.
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KingStannis
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FFS

History is not "written by the winners", it is written by historians, and ignorance of what historians have a consensus on generally leads to ignorance.
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