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    The last time the topic of black students in education came up on UK-L it became a highly controversial discussion, with some supporting and others refuting the claim that intelligence varies by race.

    As you may know from my other posts, I'm currently conducting a four month project looking at the underachievement of Afro-Caribbean males in access o British education, both for the purposes of an academic dissertation and media article.

    The topic I'd like you to discuss... why is achievement by Afro-Caribbeans, males in particular, so much worse than average in British education? Why, in 2002, did only 37 black students achieve AAA, out of a total of over 20,000? Why do only about 25 black students get accepted to Oxford yearly out of 3,500? Why is the acceptance rate at Oxford for black students so worse than the average (1 in 6 compared to 1 in 3)? In 1998 only 29% of black students achieved 5C grades or more at GCSE compared to about half of their white counterparts?

    So why is there such a disparity? Less opportunity due to background? Different social and cultural attitudes to education? Or something else...?

    Note: This thread will be used in the academic dissertation as an online focus group.
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    why make two?
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    Because it timed out first time I pressed Submit...
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    ok....

    because if they don't do well in school chances are they will not go to university.
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    For one thing:

    We have to discount the potential that any difference in achievement is due to the fact that there may be a weaker/higher intellect in some races than others. It is very dangerous territory, and there are so many other factors that it is difficult to isolate a single one (i.e. have a control).

    I believe that if you remove this factor from the equation, the most prominent remaining one is the idea that culturally & socially, there is less emphasis put on education. Even in many inner-city schools, where the majority of students come from poor backgrounds, and the financial discrepencies dependent on differing race are not that marked, Afro-Carribean students are still out-performed by all other ethnic groups. I reas that like for like, Far-Eastern (japan china korea etc.) students are most successful, followed by "white", then Asian (indian pakistani bangladeshi etc), and finally Afro-Carribean, with males being significantly worse again than the females.
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    (Original post by Fly By)
    because if they don't do well in school chances are they will not go to university.
    Sure. But why don't they do as well in school in the first place?
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    (Original post by samd294)
    We have to discount the potential that any difference in achievement is due to the fact that there may be a weaker/higher intellect in some races than others. It is very dangerous territory, and there are so many other factors that it is difficult to isolate a single one (i.e. have a control).
    It is very dangerous territory - I didn't discount it at first as I initially thought that surely socio-economic factors alone cannot account for such a discrepancy? Though talking to several medics recently, it appears that the genetic make-up of races is virtually identical, excluding physical appearance.
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    (Original post by Jools)
    Sure. But why don't they do as well in school in the first place?
    because of cultural influences, like samd said: if you not look at the colour or the race (lets say everyone is born the same) chinese or far east students does much batter. it is all about growing up in different enviroments..

    this is a geralisation i know but, when i was in school all the black kids in school does badly acdemically.. they all have that "attititude" towards school...
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    (Original post by Fly By)
    because of cultural influences, like samd said: if you not look at the colour or the race (lets say everyone is born the same) chinese or far east students does much batter. it is all about growing up in different enviroments..

    this is a geralisation i know but, when i was in school all the black kids in school does badly acdemically.. they all have that "attititude" towards school...
    and may I add whihc I forgot to say, all the white kids that are firends with them usually end up the same, so it is not a black only thing........
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    Yeah. Different cultural attitudes will be something I'll be looking into... from a focus group I did last term with some black 6th form students it appears that not everyone values the importance of education because they look at successful black people in the media for example, and note that they got where they are not due to education, but alternative means.
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    It's interesting this whole issue of study, as I have said to you before.

    The statistics for Afro-Caribbean educational attainment in the UK, from secondary education onwards, would appear to paint a very bleak picture. Culturally and historically though, education in Barbados (to use an example) has been highly valued indeed! The Barbadian education system is arguably (when you factor in the reduced levels of expenditure) more effective than here in the UK.

    Barbados has a 100% literacy rate, higher than any other place in the Caribbean and indeed most the World. As you probably well know, Barbados in particular, has a long tradition of producing influential people and has produced several prominent Rhodes scholars who have gone on to achieve great things (not to mention a few decent cricketers along the way).

    So in essence, it is clear to me that the effective education and successful attainment of Afro-Caribbean males although problematic in the UK at present, is not necessarily like this everywhere. The 'why is this' question is something which I feel light needs to be shed on, I look forward to seeing your findings!
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    (Original post by Jools)
    It is very dangerous territory - I didn't discount it at first as I initially thought that surely socio-economic factors alone cannot account for such a discrepancy? Though talking to several medics recently, it appears that the genetic make-up of races is virtually identical, excluding physical appearance.
    So, why is it that the Olympic 100 m final is made up of at least 7 black people out of 8 contestants?
    Why is it that black people generally have a better feeling for rythm and are better dancers?

    Isn't there more to it than just physical appearance?
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    (Original post by Jools)
    Yeah. Different cultural attitudes will be something I'll be looking into... from a focus group I did last term with some black 6th form students it appears that not everyone values the importance of education because they look at successful black people in the media for example, and note that they got where they are not due to education, but alternative means.
    i also feel that it has something to do with wealth, not in the family but in continents.

    white people, asian (all) people do get influences from continnet of origin. like plenty of rich european countires, plenty of rich aisan countries but theres not a single wealthy afircan country. i dunno whether that has something to do with it but.....maybe somehow subconciously they feel they have to remian that way....?? maybe..
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    (Original post by zizero)
    So, why is it that the Olympic 100 m final is made up of at least 7 black people out of 8 contestants?
    Why is it that black people generally have a better feeling for rythm and are better dancers?

    Isn't there more to it than just physical appearance?
    for that running thing it probably IS genetics...but for that dancing thing, again its culture...majority of white peopel are bought up differently, and we been told all the time mostly as jokes that "white man cant dance", so subconciously for white people its ok not to be able to dance! but surely if you really try anyone can dance?
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    (Original post by zizero)
    So, why is it that the Olympic 100 m final is made up of at least 7 black people out of 8 contestants?
    Why is it that black people generally have a better feeling for rythm and are better dancers?

    Isn't there more to it than just physical appearance?
    Indeed. Though when Joey_Johns asserted using the same logic that blacks are less intelligent that whites last time this was discussed, that provoked an outcry, including accusations of racism.
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    On my course and year their is two black people out of a total of 90. That is quite shocking, they are lots of chineese/asians but hardly any blacks. One of the black people there is Nigerian which means their is only one british black person.

    I read some where that a british black male is 6 times more likely to go to prison than university. What causes this? It seems such a shame.
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    (Original post by Fly By)
    for that running thing it probably IS genetics...but for that dancing thing, again its culture...majority of white peopel are bought up differently, and we been told all the time mostly as jokes that "white man cant dance", so subconciously for white people its ok not to be able to dance! but surely if you really try anyone can dance?
    Interesting! Though isn't "rhythm" largely a natural thing - the ability to effortlessly dance to the music? And I think through simple participant observation it would be a fair to say that blacks in general have more "rhythm". Anyone disagree?
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    (Original post by amazingtrade)
    On my course and year their is two black people out of a total of 90. That is quite shocking, they are lots of chineese/asians but hardly any blacks. One of the black people there is Nigerian which means their is only one british black person.
    There's several colleges here with 300-400 people, of which 1 or 2 are black.
    (Original post by amazingtrade)
    I read some where that a british black male is 6 times more likely to go to prison than university. What causes this? It seems such a shame.
    I'm not sure about that statistic... I did read that there were currently more black young adults in prison than in university in the UK.
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    (Original post by Fly By)
    for that running thing it probably IS genetics...but for that dancing thing, again its culture...majority of white peopel are bought up differently, and we been told all the time mostly as jokes that "white man cant dance", so subconciously for white people its ok not to be able to dance! but surely if you really try anyone can dance?
    Many white people grow up with music in the house all the time. Yet very few can dance as well as the average black person.

    It's difficult to argue about this, because what I am saying about black people being better at dancing is solely based on personal experience. Out of the people I know, the best dancers are black, some of them dance like gods. Certainly the proportion of good dancers is higher among my black friends. But of course, it is difficult to generalise.

    One anectode to illustrate my point: A few month ago I went to one of the biggest clubs in my city (where BTW there is only a small black population). On the basic dancefloor, most people were not really dancing, only moving a bit. The good dancers were on stage. In came a few black guys. Within five minutes they were on stage dancing with the fittest chicks in the club.

    My broader point is this though: There is strong empirical evidence that the genetic differences are not limited to the level of melanine (how black your skin is). My point about dancing may be shaky, but the one about sports certainly isn't.
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    (Original post by Jools)
    There's several colleges here with 300-400 people, of which 1 or 2 are black.

    I'm not sure about that statistic... I did read that there were currently more black young adults in prison than in university in the UK.
    In it was the guardian I got it from.
 
 
 
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