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Online Focus Group: Black Students in British Education watch

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    (Original post by Jools)
    Interesting! Though isn't "rhythm" largely a natural thing - the ability to effortlessly dance to the music? And I think through simple participant observation it would be a fair to say that blacks in general have more "rhythm". Anyone disagree?
    lol, i'm afriad you're askign the wrong person! but rhythm is something that can gain and learned as you work more with it. although it still think its a culture thing...

    for example, do you think if you bring up a black kid in a posh white family (without treating him any differently of course) he would end up like your "average" blakc kid?
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    (Original post by Jools)
    There's several colleges here with 300-400 people, of which 1 or 2 are black.
    That's roughly true of my school.
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    (Original post by Baron Huntroyde)
    That's roughly true of my school.
    It was the opposite in my school, in fact one of the forms had no white people in it! Sadly it was also not that unusual for the form tutor to be out of a job as nobody in that group would turn up to school. The school was in Moss Side where 60% of population is black.
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    (Original post by Baron Huntroyde)
    That's roughly true of my school.
    For schools it's a massive disparity based on geographic location - my two schools in the north east both had one black student out of over 1000. Compare that with London for example where there's a much greater population of black students - though the varation is like between poorly-achieving inner city comprehensives and the top public schools within London is likely to be quite contrasting.
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    hey jools, has this been helpful for your study?
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    (Original post by amazingtrade)
    It was the opposite in my school, in fact one of the forms had no white people in it! Sadly it was also not that unusual for the form tutor to be out of a job as nobody in that group would turn up to school. The school was in Moss Side where 60% of population is black.
    So the topic of criminality has come up - Moss Side has a nationally notorious for social deprivation, and you suggest the area has a high black population. The Afro-Caribbean race in UK is stereotyped and stigmatised as having a much greater proportion of criminals, and the prison statistic previously mentioned may support this. So why's this the case? Linked again to poor socio-economic background, or is race a fundamental part of the equation?
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    (Original post by Fly By)
    hey jools, has this been helpful for your study?
    This has been absolutely brilliant, it's exactly the kind of comments and opinions I've been looking for. I'll rep everyone if you PM me.
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    (Original post by Jools)
    Indeed. Though when Joey_Johns asserted using the same logic that blacks are less intelligent that whites last time this was discussed, that provoked an outcry, including accusations of racism.
    I am not trying to show that black people are somehow "less intelligent" than white people.

    I am just saying that you can't just disregard that possibility, by arguing that genetic differences are strictly based on skin colour. As the sprinting example shows, they are not.

    So, it is a possibility, though it would be very ugly one indeed, that there are also differences as far as intelligence is concerned. By the way, if that were to be true, that wouldn't necessarily mean that one ethinic group is "less intelligent" than another, but merely, that it is "differently intelligent". "Intelligence" has many components, and if there are differences between ethnic groups as far as intelligence is concerned, it is highly unlikely, that one group would do better than another in all these areas.

    You are trying to investigate why Black Carribean people do less well within the British school system than other ethnic groups. The main thing that differentiates them for other groups of course, is by definition their ethnic origin. Their social position or their culture are merely secondary considerations, as they only apply to some members of the group. However, the characteristic that defines the group, applies to all members.

    So, this primary characteristic has to be investigated if you want to explain differences. Of course, it feels weird, but that is the logical thing to do, even if it is not PC, and even if some of your findings may be very disturbing.
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    (Original post by Jools)
    This has been absolutely brilliant, it's exactly the kind of comments and opinions I've been looking for. I'll rep everyone.
    lol hehe thank you..
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    Good advice zizero. Heh, you're a year to the day younger than me.
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    I don't think it is specificaly race related, I mean there are plenty of black people who have gone onto do a very well in this country. I think the core problem is deprivation, now the question is what makes black people poor? Do you have genuine difficulities getting jobs? Why do a lot of black people seem to find it hard to concentrate at school and therefore get an education to suceed?

    I don't know the answers to any of these questions. The problem is seems to be a lot worse for black british males as well, most the black males I know who were not borin in the UK did do very well at school and now have good jobs, Black females seem do well too. The problem seems to be with the british born black male. Porverty seems to be at the route of it.
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    (Original post by Jools)
    So the topic of criminality has come up - Moss Side has a nationally notorious for social deprivation, and you suggest the area has a high black population. The Afro-Caribbean race in UK is stereotyped and stigmatised as having a much greater proportion of criminals, and the prison statistic previously mentioned may support this. So why's this the case? Linked again to poor socio-economic background, or is race a fundamental part of the equation?
    Though it's not exactly Windsor, I think Moss Side's reputation precedes it somewhat in that it's not as run down as many people think but for it to lose its reputation it will have to improve a lot, which it may do as it's in the perfect location really for access to Manchester centre.
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    (Original post by Jools)
    Good advice zizero. Heh, you're a year to the day younger than me.
    WOW! So, we are kind of twins...
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    (Original post by Jools)
    So why is there such a disparity? Less opportunity due to background? Different social and cultural attitudes to education? Or something else...?
    In my view, academic achievement depends primarily on ability and a motivation to use this ability*. The scale of the underachievement outlined by Jools rules out lower average intelligence among blacks as anything but the most minor of factors. The dominant factor, therefore, must be the lack of motivation within the black community. This can be explained by the concentration of black role models in fields such as sport and music, and their virtual absence from academia. More important, however, are the attitudes of society - a black person at university will be confronted weekly with investigations into why blacks do very badly. This is bound to have an effect. Furthermore, many whites still think black people are less intelligent - I have heard nice, intelligent people say this, not only online but in person. Ultimately, however, I think the attitude of the black community itself is the biggest problem, and certainly the most likely avenue to remedy black underachievement. Academic performance is, unfortunately, very difficult to attain. Unless you have a deeply rooted belief in you capability to achieve it, and an equally firm belief in its importance, you will lack the determination required to do well academically. Such fundamental beliefs can only be instilled at home, by your parents, relatives, and closest friends. It seems likely to me it is the absence of a real desire to achieve which best explain black underachievement.

    Unfortunately, testing these ideas empirically is virtually impossible.

    *: Economic factors are, in my view, secondary - we are fortunate enough to live in a society where access to learning materials is very commonplace via libraries, the internet, public lectures, and many other resources.
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    oh my god! zizero, i just relaised something looking at your post!!!

    maybe the human race are meant to work together!! maybe our destiny was to realise that!! thats why god made us all better at something!!
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    I think the point about role models that was made earlier is a very good one. Many (and i know I sound like an arse saying this because I dont really have an idea) young black people aspire to those roles that require no formal education. Although there are many afro-carribeans who have achieved a great deal through the pursuit of knowledge and education, and who are there as role models if people choose to look upon them in that way, this is usually not done.
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    (Original post by amazingtrade)
    Why do a lot of black people seem to find it hard to concentrate at school and therefore get an education to suceed?
    I'm not sure if the problem's difficulty in concentrating, which would suggest that many really want to do their best but are finding it difficult. Instead there seems to be the idea that many are not interested in education.[/quote]
    (Original post by amazingtrade)
    I don't know the answers to any of these questions. The problem is seems to be a lot worse for black british males as well, most the black males I know who were not borin in the UK did do very well at school and now have good jobs, Black females seem do well too. The problem seems to be with the british born black male. Porverty seems to be at the route of it.
    This is a very good point - people I've met at university from Nigeria, Ghana etc are really conscientious and very interested in their academic studies. The problem does indeed seem to be focussed upon British-born students.
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    (Original post by Fly By)
    oh my god! zizero, i just relaised something looking at your post!!!

    maybe the human race are meant to work together!! maybe our destiny was to realise that!! thats why god made us all better at something!!
    I am honoured to have inspired you...

    You can call me Guru. :cool:

    On a more serious note, I think that it would indeed be a good idea to see our differences more as a gift than as a curse. Perhaps, we really are complementary. Perhaps, there is another way, than one culture or civilisation imposing itself on all the others.
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    (Original post by samd294)
    I think the point about role models that was made earlier is a very good one. Many (and i know I sound like an arse saying this because I dont really have an idea) young black people aspire to those roles that require no formal education. Although there are many afro-carribeans who have achieved a great deal through the pursuit of knowledge and education, and who are there as role models if people choose to look upon them in that way, this is usually not done.
    True, I think the influence of role models is under-rated. Any ideas who I should try to get in touch with for their comments? I'm thinking Dizzee Rascall and CBBC people (Andi Peters & Dave Benson Phillips).
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    (Original post by Jools)
    I'm not sure if the problem's difficulty in concentrating, which would suggest that many really want to do their best but are finding it difficult. Instead there seems to be the idea that many are not interested in education.
    This is a very good point - people I've met at university from Nigeria, Ghana etc are really conscientious and very interested in their academic studies. The problem does indeed seem to be focussed upon British-born students.[/QUOTE]
    Maybe, those who have lived all their live within a social and educational system, they do not consider their own, develop a reaction against that system, and hence somehow refuse to do well in it.

    Tupac for instance was (and is) an inspiration to many young black people. He incarnates this attitude towards the "white system".

    Perhaps, black people feel that they are betraying their roots, that they are not being themselves, if they do well within "the system".

    If that's case, the solution is simple: try to get black people to identify with British social structures, try to avoid the impression that "the system" is somehow exclusive.
 
 
 
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