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Online Focus Group: Black Students in British Education watch

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    (Original post by Jools)
    True, I think the influence of role models is under-rated. Any ideas who I should try to get in touch with for their comments? I'm thinking Dizzee Rascall and CBBC people (Andi Peters & Dave Benson Phillips).
    And Otis from Short Change. Actually not Otis, we saw him at a bar at the weekend and went to speak to him and he was a phallus. Or maybe my mate was annoying, i forget.
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    (Original post by Mysticmin)
    Culture is an inherent part to learning. There are bright people I've met who could obviously do well at exams, but lack the motivation to study and revise. I suspect this links to your parent's expectations of you. I know a child passionate about a subject will work at it despite parental influences, but for the average child, if your parents installed a belief into you early that education was imporant, then you will want to succeed.

    I know in china, my relatives believe it is important to succeed, for themselves and also so their parents can be proud of them. The culture that exists there is one of working hard, so many children do well.
    Re Culture: Between 1951-2000, over 30% of Nobel Leaureates in Science and Medicine were Jewish. The world population of Jews is about 0.5%; even in Western countries, it averages around 1%. 31% of Harvard students are Jewish, though just 2% of Americans are. I think these two statistics demonstrate culture can have an unbelievable effect.
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    (Original post by H&E)
    Re Culture: Between 1951-2000, over 30% of Nobel Leaureates in Science and Medicine were Jewish. The world population of Jews is about 0.5%; even in Western countries, it averages around 1%. 31% of Harvard students are Jewish, though just 2% of Americans are. I think these two statistics demonstrate culture can have an unbelievable effect.
    Agreed. If i had grown up in a culture which didn't support learning I bet I'd have dropped out of college by now.
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    Well you can download ofsted reports here
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    (Original post by zizero)
    I am not trying to show that black people are somehow "less intelligent" than white people.

    I am just saying that you can't just disregard that possibility, by arguing that genetic differences are strictly based on skin colour. As the sprinting example shows, they are not.

    So, it is a possibility, though it would be very ugly one indeed, that there are also differences as far as intelligence is concerned. By the way, if that were to be true, that wouldn't necessarily mean that one ethinic group is "less intelligent" than another, but merely, that it is "differently intelligent". "Intelligence" has many components, and if there are differences between ethnic groups as far as intelligence is concerned, it is highly unlikely, that one group would do better than another in all these areas.

    You are trying to investigate why Black Carribean people do less well within the British school system than other ethnic groups. The main thing that differentiates them for other groups of course, is by definition their ethnic origin. Their social position or their culture are merely secondary considerations, as they only apply to some members of the group. However, the characteristic that defines the group, applies to all members.

    So, this primary characteristic has to be investigated if you want to explain differences. Of course, it feels weird, but that is the logical thing to do, even if it is not PC, and even if some of your findings may be very disturbing.
    You make some great points Zizero. Your idea of 'differently intelligent' I believe to be a very good one. I believe that the average black person probably has a more natural instinct to survive when in the wild so to say than a white person due to their natural attributes which is probably the most important thing in life, and in a way proves intelligence. Now because white people have come to rely upon such things as weapons they do not have the same instinct perhaps but such thins as guns etc were invented by white men to make life easier, which is another kind of intelligence.

    Now why black kids do worse than white kids is by far mainly due to socio-economic reasons. I would point out that the current captain of my old schools XV is not only the top try scoring England U18 player (winger by the way, he is lighting quick, which keeps up with the stereotype ), he has also got an offer from Oxford. He has however had the best possible start in life going to a 20k a year school, so clearly black people can achieve in both physical an mental stakes if given the chance.

    I would argue that white people have a VERY slight advantage on the type of intelligence which gets you top grades at GCSE and A level, but this is mainly due to the attitude to 'try hard' and intake mainly bullet points, which for me is a sign of intelligence. Clearly many white kids do not 'try hard' and again this is mainly due to socio-economic reasons again. I believe however that Asians (mostly south East Asian) have a better 'try hard' ethos than that of white people and so often achieve much more than their white counterparts in top schools where they have been given every opportunity to succeed.

    Obviously this is very sensitive ground and no doubt I will be called a 'racist' but for me until someone looks and investigates fully without trying to be PC you will always get idiots which are quick to brand someone a racist when in reality their comments are far from the truth.

    Finally I will leave some open ended questions.

    Why did the Neanderthals become extinct when modern humans came along?

    Secondly why are red Squirrels so much dumber than that of their grey counterparts?

    I think looking at the animal world would be a good place to start Jools if you don't want to be branded a racist for suggesting some 'sensitive' points.
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    I'll be back in 15 mins, please continue this...
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    (Original post by blissy)
    This is from my old school's 2002 Ofsted report:


    I assume this isn't the norm?
    That is absolutely totally and utterly incredible, where did you go to school? That is phenomenal. Example: my maths set final year - 1 french 1 korean 2 indian 1 japanese 1 sri lankan 4 British. Religions: christinianity, judaism, islam, hinduism. In a class of ten.

    p.s. I was also the only one who didnt wear classes (including the teacher)
    Now what are the chances of that??? really 1/11 NOT wearing classes, its quite remarkable statistically in a class of 18 year olds
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    (Original post by Baron Huntroyde)
    Well you can download ofsted reports here
    Oh my! In the whole of my borough there are *wait for it* 4 black people in education. I never realised my town was like that!
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    (Original post by Joey_Johns)
    You make some great points Zizero. Your idea of 'differently intelligent' I believe to be a very good one. I believe that the average black person probably has a more natural instinct to survive when in the wild so to say than a white person due to their natural attributes which is probably the most important thing in life, and in a way proves intelligence. Now because white people have come to rely upon such things as weapons they do not have the same instinct perhaps but such thins as guns etc were invented by white men to make life easier, which is another kind of intelligence.

    Now why black kids do worse than white kids is by far mainly due to socio-economic reasons. I would point out that the current captain of my old schools XV is not only the top try scoring England U18 player (winger by the way, he is lighting quick, which keeps up with the stereotype ), he has also got an offer from Oxford. He has however had the best possible start in life going to a 20k a year school, so clearly black people can achieve in both physical an mental stakes if given the chance.

    I would argue that white people have a VERY slight advantage on the type of intelligence which gets you top grades at GCSE and A level, but this is mainly due to the attitude to 'try hard' and intake mainly bullet points, which for me is a sign of intelligence. Clearly many white kids do not 'try hard' and again this is mainly due to socio-economic reasons again. I believe however that Asians (mostly south East Asian) have a better 'try hard' ethos than that of white people and so often achieve much more than their white counterparts in top schools where they have been given every opportunity to succeed.

    Obviously this is very sensitive ground and no doubt I will be called a 'racist' but for me until someone looks and investigates fully without trying to be PC you will always get idiots which are quick to brand someone a racist when in reality their comments are far from the truth.

    Finally I will leave some open ended questions.

    Why did the Neanderthals become extinct when modern humans came along?

    Secondly why are red Squirrels so much dumber than that of their grey counterparts?

    I think looking at the animal world would be a good place to start Jools if you don't want to be branded a racist for suggesting some 'sensitive' points.
    That is abolutely proposterous! The idea that white DNA has somehow evolved differently in the last 900 years since the invention of modern weaponry is ridiculous.
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    (Original post by blissy)
    Oh my! In the whole of my borough there are *wait for it* 4 black people in education. I never realised my town was like that!
    Now there is what? 3 black girls in my school of just over 500 girls. It's really unfair. However Roedean have a marked higher proportion of black girls because many of them are boarders from overseas.
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    (Original post by H&E)
    Excellent post! Though, even if you identify something inherent, has that solved your problem? The differences here are very substantial. Proving that in some capacity blacks are less well suited to academic study still leaves you a very long way short of explaining why 27 of 20,000 achieve AAA, or why I could use my fingers to count the number of blacks with a 1st from Cambridge during an entire decade.

    (for the sake of comparison, the difference between the fastest ever white man and fastest ever black man is 2%.)
    2% is the kind of difference in intelligence I speak of when talking about achieving top grades. Lets be honest, it isn;t that hard to get AAA if you are willing to try hard. Anybody from any race can with the right support and work ethos.
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    (Original post by blissy)
    Oh my! In the whole of my borough there are *wait for it* 4 black people in education. I never realised my town was like that!
    Theres a study/thesis right there. Why so little immigration to the South West, its probably a far nicer introduction to the country that the crappy towns of the north and the scum filled slums of London where to majority of 60s/70s Carribean/Asian immigration occured
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    (Original post by blissy)
    Oh my! In the whole of my borough there are *wait for it* 4 black people in education. I never realised my town was like that!
    Mine doesn't do too bad:

    Indian.........27
    Pakistani.....33
    Bangladeshi...5
    Chinese.......12
    White.......1102
    Other..........10

    It gives this data in all Ofsted reports, so it may be of some use to you Jools.
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    (Original post by Baron Huntroyde)
    Mine doesn't do too bad:

    Indian.........27
    Pakistani.....33
    Bangladeshi...5
    Chinese.......12
    White.......1102
    Other..........10

    It gives this data in all Ofsted reports, so it may be of some use to you Jools.
    It also gives exclusions by ethnicity which could be very useful.
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    (Original post by samd294)
    That is abolutely proposterous! The idea that white DNA has somehow evolved differently in the last 900 years since the invention of modern weaponry is ridiculous.
    I don't just mean weapons. It was just an example. And for the record you would surprised how long rather advanced weapons and warfare was more than 900 years ago.
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    (Original post by samd294)
    Theres a study/thesis right there. Why so little immigration to the South West, its probably a far nicer introduction to the country that the crappy towns of the north and the scum filled slums of London where to majority of 60s/70s Carribean/Asian immigration occured
    I'm surprised because the Westcountry is actually an economically deprived (I don't know if that is the right term!) area and it is thought that most ethnic minorities have no choice but to live in those areas.
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    (Original post by Baron Huntroyde)
    Mine doesn't do too bad:

    Indian.........27
    Pakistani.....33
    Bangladeshi...5
    Chinese.......12
    White.......1102
    Other..........10

    It gives this data in all Ofsted reports, so it may be of some use to you Jools.
    Oh, not just in my school but in the whole borough - a population of 100,000 and there are 4 black pupils in secondary school.
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    (Original post by samd294)
    Theres a study/thesis right there. Why so little immigration to the South West, its probably a far nicer introduction to the country that the crappy towns of the north and the scum filled slums of London where to majority of 60s/70s Carribean/Asian immigration occured
    Oh ok. 'crappy towns' and 'slum filled slums'.
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    (Original post by Joey_Johns)
    I don't just mean weapons. It was just an example. And for the record you would surprised how long rather advanced weapons and warfare was more than 900 years ago.
    Human DNA hasn't evolved one jot since the start of human civilisation let alone since some form of tangible technological warfare that would in any way replace the kind of "instinctive behaviour" you mention.
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    Let's not get into this argument again! It lasted 12 pages, and a very great deal of very, very rude language last time.
 
 
 
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