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    I just wanted to address the article in the Washington Post (Often refereed to as the Washinton COMpost because it is a joke of a paper)

    All's fair in love and war...and sometimes politics. The democrats and the republicans both want to win, but, assuming the washinton post article is accurate, it doesn't imply any deceitful behavior on the part of the republicans. You can't say the same for the Dems

    In Florida, they have a machine that reads punch cards. The Gore team quickly tried to manipulate the outcome of the election because, no matter how often the machines counted the votes, he kept losing. Soon we had a team of people trying to decide what the intent of the voters were by looking at the punch cards. Just to make things fair (tongue in cheek), they were recounting only in areas that were populated by very liberal people that obviously voted for Gore. This was probably their criteria:

    DOUBLE PUNCHED CARDS-- Go to Gore
    NO PUNCHES ON CARD-- Is a Gore vote cast by a blind person?
    HANGING CHADS-- Gore
    DIMPLES ON BALLOTS--Vote for Gore
    SWINGING CHADS-- Goes to Al.
    MULTIPLE DIMPLES AROUND CHADS-- Is each dimple a vote for Gore?
    NO VOTES--Ditto
    MILITARY VOTES-- Gore would rather have as few counted as possible.

    Then there's the fact that Florida was, mistakenly, declared a winning state for gore before people in the western parts of Florida even got to the polls. How many Bush voters must have heard that on the radio and turned around and drove home, figuring there was no point in voting?
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    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    I just wanted to address the article in the Washington Post (Often refereed to as the Washinton COMpost because it is a joke of a paper)

    All's fair in love and war...and sometimes politics. The democrats and the republicans both want to win, but, assuming the washinton post article is accurate, it doesn't imply any deceitful behavior on the part of the republicans. You can't say the same for the Dems

    In Florida, they have a machine that reads punch cards. The Gore team quickly tried to manipulate the outcome of the election because, no matter how often the machines counted the votes, he kept losing. Soon we had a team of people trying to decide what the intent of the voters were by looking at the punch cards. Just to make things fair (tongue in cheek), they were recounting only in areas that were populated by very liberal people that obviously voted for Gore. This was probably their criteria:

    DOUBLE PUNCHED CARDS-- Go to Gore
    NO PUNCHES ON CARD-- Is a Gore vote cast by a blind person?
    HANGING CHADS-- Gore
    DIMPLES ON BALLOTS--Vote for Gore
    SWINGING CHADS-- Goes to Al.
    MULTIPLE DIMPLES AROUND CHADS-- Is each dimple a vote for Gore?
    NO VOTES--Ditto
    MILITARY VOTES-- Gore would rather have as few counted as possible.

    Then there's the fact that Florida was, mistakenly, declared a winning state for gore before people in the western parts of Florida even got to the polls. How many Bush voters must have heard that on the radio and turned around and drove home, figuring there was no point in voting?
    Is any of this more than myth/speculation?
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    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    A lot of these postings sadden me because if you reversed some of these questions and asked, in the USA, these question, the answers would be totally different. For example, there is a question asking if British people hated the USA. About 1/4 of the people that responded said yes. In the USA, if you asked if we hated the British, you would probably be laughed at or slapped for asking such an absurd question. I can guarantee that 99% of Americans are total Anglophiles. We might be a little annoyed at you guys for exporting some really awful unreliable, rust bucket cars in the 70s, but that is as far as it goes. I am a bit surprised that there are so many people that dislike the USA. Americans love the UK and would be very surprised to read some of the comments on this forum. I don't think most of us know that the feelings aren't mutual

    I wanted to make a few points:

    #1 I wonder how many people who have been criticising the USA have actually been there. The only way you can learn about a country, if you have never been there, is to learn about it from what you here on the news. I don't think that is an accurate way to learn about a country.

    #2 The statment "I like americans, but I don't like their government" is not a very intelligent comment. Americans vote in their leaders. Obviously, we are in favor of their policies, or we wouldn't have voted for Bush

    #3 Bush won the election. End of story. Yes, he may have one the popular vote, but that isn't how elections work in the USA. We have a system called the electoral college. It's a brilliant setup where small states with different needs have their voices heard. If not for the electoral college, elections would be dominated by voters in heavily populated areas such as New York or California. What is right for a person in New York City may not suit a farmer in Nebraska. Votes were counted over and over again in Florida and each time Bush was the winner.

    #4 Regarding the link that plays the Fox news clip- The channel probably had a person come on the air to give an opposing view to counter what the commentator said. Fox news has had some people that have defended the BBC just as vehemently. Whoever put up that link obviously has some sort of agenda and did some careful editing.

    #5 As Vienna95 said in some other posts, how many of you really know about Bush's policies? You all say you don't like them, but how many of you know what they are? He has done a lot of good in America.
    Taxes have been lowered and I now have more money in my pocket to support myself and pay my mortgage. My standard of living has gone up and the tax cuts played a big role in that. He signed two income tax cuts, one of which was the largest dollar-value tax cut in world history!
    Bush supports permanent elimination of the death tax.
    He reduced and is working to ultimately eliminate the estate tax for family farms and ranches.
    He turned around an inherited economy that was in recession, and deeply shocked as a result of the 9/11 attacks.
    Tough new laws to hold corporate criminals to account as a result of corporate scandals have been passed.
    He is working on getting Partial Birth Abortion banned. Partial Birth Abortion allows a woman to have an abortion as late as the 9th month!
    States are able to conduct criminal background checks on prospective foster and adoptive parents.
    $20 million has been given to states to help people with disabilities work from home.
    A fund to encourage technologies that help the disabled has been created.
    Bush is working to provide vouchers to low-income students in persistently failing schools to help with costs of attending private schools. (Blocked in the Senate.)
    The No Child Left Behind Act was signed, delivering the most dramatic education reforms in a generation
    Now, please tell me which of these policies you are opposed to?

    #6 Most of you have a problem with Iraq. I think a lot of Europeans don't have all of the facts. This is a letter from Ray Reynolds, a medic in the Iowa Army National Guard, serving in Iraq:

    As I head off to Baghdad for the final weeks of my stay in Iraq, I wanted to say thanks to all of you who did not believe the media. They have done a very poor job of covering everything that has happened. I am sorry that I have not been able to visit all of you during my two week leave back home. And just so you can rest at night knowing something is happening in Iraq that is noteworthy, I thought I would pass this on to you. This is the list of things that has happened in Iraq recently: (Please share it with your friends and compare it to >the >version that your paper is producing.)
    * Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
    * School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
    * Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
    * The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.
    * The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
    * Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
    * The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before;the war.
    * 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
    * Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
    * Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
    * Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
    * Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
    * Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
    * Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
    * Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques >to prevent the spread of germs.
    * An interim constitution has been signed.
    * Girls are allowed to attend school.
    * Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years. Don't believe for one second that these people do not want us there. I have met many, many people from Iraq that want us there, and in a bad way. They say they will never see the freedoms we talk about but >they hope their children will. We are doing a good job in Iraq and I challenge anyone, anywhere to dispute me on these facts. So If you happen to run into John Kerry, be sure to give him my email address and send him to Denison, Iowa. This soldier will set him straight. If you are like me and very disgusted with how this period of rebuilding has been portrayed, email this to a friend and let them know there are good things happening.

    Ray Reynolds, SFC
    Iowa Army National Guard
    234th Signal Battalion


    #7 The abuses going on in Iraq are isolated incidences. A few soldier have done some things that they shouldn't have, but it pales in comparison to the savage brutality that has been going on for decades in that that part of the world. There are

    #8 300,000 people were found in mass graves. Sadaam has gassed tens of thousands of kurds and was killing about 16,000 of his own people each year. He had to be stopped.

    #9 I am tired of hearing people say Bush is stupid. He is a lousy speaker. We all know that. He isn't stupid though. He went to Yale and Harvard What schools did you geniouses go to?

    #10 He is the only President since the founding of the UN to essentially tell that organization it is irrelevant. He said: "The conduct of the Iraqi regime is a threat to the authority of the United Nations, and a threat to peace. Iraq has answered a decade of UN demands with a decade of defiance. All the world now faces a test, and the United Nations a difficult and defining moment. Are Security Council resolutions to be honored and enforced, or cast aside without consequence? Will the United Nations serve the purpose of its founding, or will it be irrelevant?" We all know the outcome and the answer.
    Thanks for your input, but this is the wrong threat. The "Do you hate Americans?" thread would for example have been more apropriate.

    I said at the very beginning of this thread that I did not want it to be about Bush-bashing. Nobody has in fact made any stupid Bush-bashing remarks here.

    We are not discussing whether Bush is a good man or a good president or an idiot or whatever, we are discussing his ethical system and whether it is coherent.

    Unfortunately, none of your comments address the issue.

    However, since apart from Vienna, there seems to be no-one in this thread willing to defend Bush's ethics, I would be very happy indeed if you could join in and defend your point of view on the question. I'm curious to hear what you have to say.

    By the way, welcome to UKL!
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    OK just one more

    "THE ADMINISTRATION I'LL BRING IS A GROUP OF MEN AND WOMEN WHO ARE FOCUSED ON WHAT'S BEST FOR AMERICA, HONEST MEN AND WOMEN, DECENT MEN AND WOMEN, WOMEN WHO WILL SEE SERVICE TO OUR COUNTRY AS A GREAT PRIVILEGE AND WHO WILL
    NOT STAIN THE HOUSE."
    -DES MOINES REGISTER DEBATE, IOWA, JAN. 15, 2000
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    Guys, let us please keept this thread on topic.

    I don't want any pro-Bush propaganda, nor do I want any Bush-bashing.

    Whether or not the 2000 election was legitimate is irrelevant to this thread. It's been discussed endlessly in other threads, and I don't think anything new would come out here.

    So, please let's get back to the actual issue: Bush and Ethics
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    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    #1 I wonder how many people who have been criticising the USA have actually been there. The only way you can learn about a country, if you have never been there, is to learn about it from what you here on the news. I don't think that is an accurate way to learn about a country.
    http://www.gyford.com/phil/writing/2...ny_america.php
    This puts a generous estimate of US citizeans owning passports at 20% of the population. surley you point is a little hypocritical as the vast majority of you country have no visited any where other than america. If you can over here you might understand what we are on about.

    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    #2 The statment "I like americans, but I don't like their government" is not a very intelligent comment. Americans vote in their leaders. Obviously, we are in favor of their policies, or we wouldn't have voted for Bush
    yes but as we have said above most americans haven't got a clue about global politics, we cant hold them at fault for their ignorgance however their government should know

    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    #3 Bush won the election. End of story. Yes, he may have one the popular vote, but that isn't how elections work in the USA. We have a system called the electoral college. It's a brilliant setup where small states with different needs have their voices heard. If not for the electoral college, elections would be dominated by voters in heavily populated areas such as New York or California. What is right for a person in New York City may not suit a farmer in Nebraska. Votes were counted over and over again in Florida and each time Bush was the winner.
    but as its already been pointed out the election was unfair

    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    #4 Regarding the link that plays the Fox news clip- The channel probably had a person come on the air to give an opposing view to counter what the commentator said. Fox news has had some people that have defended the BBC just as vehemently. Whoever put up that link obviously has some sort of agenda and did some careful editing.
    The US press doesn't give the impression of being unbias and objective tho generally
    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    #5 As Vienna95 said in some other posts, how many of you really know about Bush's policies? You all say you don't like them, but how many of you know what they are? He has done a lot of good in America.
    Taxes have been lowered and I now have more money in my pocket to support myself and pay my mortgage. My standard of living has gone up and the tax cuts played a big role in that. He signed two income tax cuts, one of which was the largest dollar-value tax cut in world history!
    Bush supports permanent elimination of the death tax.
    He reduced and is working to ultimately eliminate the estate tax for family farms and ranches.
    He turned around an inherited economy that was in recession, and deeply shocked as a result of the 9/11 attacks.
    Tough new laws to hold corporate criminals to account as a result of corporate scandals have been passed.
    He is working on getting Partial Birth Abortion banned. Partial Birth Abortion allows a woman to have an abortion as late as the 9th month!
    States are able to conduct criminal background checks on prospective foster and adoptive parents.
    $20 million has been given to states to help people with disabilities work from home.
    A fund to encourage technologies that help the disabled has been created.
    Bush is working to provide vouchers to low-income students in persistently failing schools to help with costs of attending private schools. (Blocked in the Senate.)
    The No Child Left Behind Act was signed, delivering the most dramatic education reforms in a generation
    Now, please tell me which of these policies you are opposed to?
    and has increased the federal deficeit doing so.....
    and his FP is disliked by many nations for being intrusive

    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    #6 Most of you have a problem with Iraq. I think a lot of Europeans don't have all of the facts. This is a letter from Ray Reynolds, a medic in the Iowa Army National Guard, serving in Iraq:

    As I head off to Baghdad for the final weeks of my stay in Iraq, I wanted to say thanks to all of you who did not believe the media. They have done a very poor job of covering everything that has happened. I am sorry that I have not been able to visit all of you during my two week leave back home. And just so you can rest at night knowing something is happening in Iraq that is noteworthy, I thought I would pass this on to you. This is the list of things that has happened in Iraq recently: (Please share it with your friends and compare it to >the >version that your paper is producing.)
    * Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
    * School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
    * Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
    * The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.
    * The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
    * Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
    * The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before;the war.
    * 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
    * Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
    * Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
    * Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
    * Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
    * Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
    * Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
    * Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques >to prevent the spread of germs.
    * An interim constitution has been signed.
    * Girls are allowed to attend school.
    * Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years. Don't believe for one second that these people do not want us there. I have met many, many people from Iraq that want us there, and in a bad way. They say they will never see the freedoms we talk about but >they hope their children will. We are doing a good job in Iraq and I challenge anyone, anywhere to dispute me on these facts. So If you happen to run into John Kerry, be sure to give him my email address and send him to Denison, Iowa. This soldier will set him straight. If you are like me and very disgusted with how this period of rebuilding has been portrayed, email this to a friend and let them know there are good things happening.

    Ray Reynolds, SFC
    Iowa Army National Guard
    234th Signal Battalion
    the war tho was declared for the wrong reasons and democracy looks to be stalling over there with the increases in violence recently, the large problem of a kurdish state has yet to be solved and the US seems to expect the UN to help it now even with it when withou their help. On the issue of stability, the country is also being controlled for the large part by private military contractors who seem to be totally unregulated, that can't be a good thing.

    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    #7 The abuses going on in Iraq are isolated incidences. A few soldier have done some things that they shouldn't have, but it pales in comparison to the savage brutality that has been going on for decades in that that part of the world.
    well Donald seems pretty cute about keeping it all quiet...we expect understandibley better from the worlds more developed military

    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    #8 300,000 people were found in mass graves. Sadaam has gassed tens of thousands of kurds and was killing about 16,000 of his own people each year. He had to be stopped.
    well the US has killed around 10,000 so far in a year...... and it was with gas that the US supplied him that he killed the Kurds with.

    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    #9 I am tired of hearing people say Bush is stupid. He is a lousy speaker. We all know that. He isn't stupid though. He went to Yale and Harvard What schools did you geniouses go to?
    anyone who gets FP advice from these guys is mad http://www.newamericancentury.org/

    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    #10 He is the only President since the founding of the UN to essentially tell that organization it is irrelevant. He said: "The conduct of the Iraqi regime is a threat to the authority of the United Nations, and a threat to peace. Iraq has answered a decade of UN demands with a decade of defiance. All the world now faces a test, and the United Nations a difficult and defining moment. Are Security Council resolutions to be honored and enforced, or cast aside without consequence? Will the United Nations serve the purpose of its founding, or will it be irrelevant?" We all know the outcome and the answer.
    well considering the US as its used the veto more than anyone else on the security concil its hardy suprising that in the past that the UN hasn't been able to act properly without the support of the world's largest country. I see another league of nations situation arising and we all know what that led to...
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    { shiny stops reading now that the essays are starting to come out }
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    (Original post by shiny)
    { shiny stops reading now that the essays are starting to come out }
    sorry to you and to zizero about that!
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    I disagree about not address the issue of ethics. Sometimes it's hard to stay on topic when you get flustered by a lot of things you feel like you have to defend, but I think a lot of what I mentioned above is the epitome of ethical behavior. I'll try again

    I think it is unethical to tax people to the point where they are forced to have a lower standard of living. Even a small tax cut can mean the difference between paying your rent and getting evicted. I think the Bush tax cuts are ethical!

    Bush supports permanent elimination of the death tax. Another ethical position! That money has already been taxed once.

    He is working on getting Partial Birth Abortion banned. Even most fanatically pro-choice people dosn't support late term abortions. Very ethical, n'est pas?

    States are able to conduct criminal background checks on prospective foster and adoptive parents. Is this unethical? I think so

    $20 million has been given to states to help people with disabilities work from home. I think this is very ethical and I think most people would agree.

    A fund to encourage technologies that help the disabled has been created. Anything that helps the disabled is ethical.

    Being ethical (remember, ethical means being in accordance with the accepted principles of right and wrong that govern the conduct of a profession) is helping children get a good education regardless of what their background is. Bush tried to provide vouchers to low-income students in persistently failing schools to help with costs of attending private schools.

    I think bringing these changes to Iraq is in accordance with the accepted principles of right and wrong:

    * Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
    * School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
    * Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
    * The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.
    * The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
    * Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
    * The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before;the war.
    * 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
    * Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
    * Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
    * Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
    * Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
    * Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
    * Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
    * Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques >to prevent the spread of germs.
    * An interim constitution has been signed.
    * Girls are allowed to attend school.
    * Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.

    All of these things are in accordance with the accepted principles of right and wrong that govern the conduct of a profession, in this case the profession is being the president of the USA.
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    (Original post by Speciez99)
    sorry to you and to zizero about that!
    no worries I just do not have the same level of diligence that you guys have when it comes to debate
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    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    I disagree about not address the issue of ethics. Sometimes it's hard to stay on topic when you get flustered by a lot of things you feel like you have to defend, but I think a lot of what I mentioned above is the epitome of ethical behavior. I'll try again

    I think it is unethical to tax people to the point where they are forced to have a lower standard of living. Even a small tax cut can mean the difference between paying your rent and getting evicted. I think the Bush tax cuts are ethical!

    Bush supports permanent elimination of the death tax. Another ethical position! That money has already been taxed once.

    He is working on getting Partial Birth Abortion banned. Even most fanatically pro-choice people dosn't support late term abortions. Very ethical, n'est-ce pas?

    States are able to conduct criminal background checks on prospective foster and adoptive parents. Is this unethical? I think so

    $20 million has been given to states to help people with disabilities work from home. I think this is very ethical and I think most people would agree.

    A fund to encourage technologies that help the disabled has been created. Anything that helps the disabled is ethical.

    Being ethical (remember, ethical means being in accordance with the accepted principles of right and wrong that govern the conduct of a profession) is helping children get a good education regardless of what their background is. Bush tried to provide vouchers to low-income students in persistently failing schools to help with costs of attending private schools.

    I think bringing these changes to Iraq is in accordance with the accepted principles of right and wrong:

    * Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
    * School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
    * Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
    * The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.
    * The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
    * Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
    * The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before;the war.
    * 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
    * Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
    * Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
    * Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
    * Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
    * Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
    * Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
    * Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques >to prevent the spread of germs.
    * An interim constitution has been signed.
    * Girls are allowed to attend school.
    * Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.

    All of these things are in accordance with the accepted principles of right and wrong that govern the conduct of a profession, in this case the profession is being the president of the USA.
    Have you read the initial post of this thread?

    The point is not whether Bush is "ethical". The point is whether Bush's moral system is valid and coherent and whether or not he stresses it too much.

    'ethical means being in accordance with the accepted principles of right and wrong that govern the conduct of a profession'
    What are those "accepted principles". I think that the problem is precisely that some of the decisions Bush has to make cannot be solely based on universally accepted principles. He has to adopt a moral code that will necessarily upset some people.

    The best proof that Bush does not act according to "accepted principles" is that there are a lot of people who think many of Bush's actions are wrong (now you can't deny that).

    Hence, Bush's actions are not universally accepted.

    Acting ethically for a president of the US has to go beyond accepted principles, because they do not provide the answer to many tough decisions. Hence, the president has to make a choice about his morals, an ethical choice.

    And it's precisely that which we are discussing here. Are Bush's Ethics valid.

    I would suggest you first try to answer the question I put at the beginning of this thread: Are Bush's moral justifications for the killing of innocent civilians in Iraq consistant with the moral basis for his position on stem-cell research?

    P.s. Do you happen to be involved in any way with the Bush campaign?
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    (Original post by Speciez99)
    sorry to you and to zizero about that!
    You are forgiven. :cool:

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    (Original post by Lepr)
    'nature's wish and fabric', that seems like an awfully romantic concept. I wonder if he was concerned with 'nature's wish and fabric' when it came to not signing the kyoto agreement.
    good point, but i was just going to come up with that now i feel slow hehe
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    (Original post by Masonne)
    good point, but i was just going to come up with that now i feel slow hehe
    you should both nip along to the global warming thread where it was discussed.
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    (Original post by Lepr)
    How about this?

    'More and more of our imports are coming from overseas'
    hehe, not technically wrong!
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    (Original post by sashh)
    Not getting involved in the debate at the moment, just putting in a couple of dictionary definitions from "The Concise Oxford Dictionary" - OK Vienna? OK everyone else
    most of these definitions i quoted in my arguments a couple of pages back.
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    (Original post by Baron Huntroyde)
    Some of them were not and never had been felons.

    No challenge was made because this practice is "legal" under US law, though it clearly shouldn't be.
    which is what my posted alluded to. so its legal, but you still think he stole the election 'illegally'?
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    which is what my posted alluded to. so its legal, but you still think he stole the election 'illegally'?
    I nevr used the word illegal, but it clearly should be illegal to put 2000+ people on the felon list who should not be there and then allow the election to continue without them.
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    this is the last time.


    (Original post by Lepr)
    Look, the 3 step logical argument is flawless, any flaw you find in it is a result of your own misunderstanding, not the veracity of the
    argument.
    thanks for letting us know. why challenge anything when its clear you believe everything is flawless. i have highlighted my issues with your statements, quoted them and provided my own theories. i ve backed them up with logical reductions, examples and dictionary definitions. there is little i can do in this circumstance whereby you wish me to critique logic that is in your eyes "flawless" and any flaw is a result of my own "misunderstanding".

    +A decision which affects the welfare of people is connected with morality.

    +An economic policy affects people, so it is has to be concerned with morality.

    +George bush supports an economic policy, and since the policy does affect people, and he is aware of this, he is making a decision concerning morality.
    it should be clear by now that i disagree with the second point. whereby you make the assumption that in effecting the welfare of a person, the decision thus becomes one of morality.

    the point of logic is to reduce an argument to absolute terms, that is to say, beyond refutation. these flawless points clearly arent as they may still be reduced further.

    unless you can explain to me why the second statement should be held as true, this logic collapses.
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    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    #10 He is the only President since the founding of the UN to essentially tell that organization it is irrelevant. He said: "The conduct of the Iraqi regime is a threat to the authority of the United Nations, and a threat to peace. Iraq has answered a decade of UN demands with a decade of defiance. All the world now faces a test, and the United Nations a difficult and defining moment. Are Security Council resolutions to be honored and enforced, or cast aside without consequence? Will the United Nations serve the purpose of its founding, or will it be irrelevant?" We all know the outcome and the answer.
    So he ignores the legal and democratic route and this is a positive? the last time people ignored a body such as the UN we ended up with the world wars.
 
 
 
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