A talk about Subjectivity and Objectivity (all welcome; bring tea)

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TorpidPhil
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And biscuits if you so like.

Alright, let me finish eating please :cookie:

Cheers, guys.

Right, so basically I wanted to address a problem that lies quite deep down in my body, I mean, somewhat close to my heart.

It is the problem of the epidemic misunderstanding concerning the meaning of the terms subjective and objective.

So, let's start first by defining the two terms with their actual meaning within academia and then define them according to what society tends to use them to mean/think they mean.

Academic definitions:
Subjective - The notion that the idea in question's truth may be altered dependent on the thoughts of a human solely.

Objective - The notion that the idea in question's truth is determined by any single, or any set of facts about the material world.

When applied to a epistemic system, such as science, "science is objective" this means: "Science as an epistemic system finds/creates knowledge that's truth is determined by any single, or any set of facts about the material world as opposed to finding/creating knowledge that is true because of the thoughts of human being".

What society thinks it means:

Subjective = Anything concerning opinions.

Objective = Anything concerning facts.

Yes, you can see that as usual the general consensus has simplified things quite a lot. But they have made mistakes when doing so.

Firstly, the notion that facts = objective and opinions = subjective is wrong because all facts can in principle be opinions.

If it is my belief that God exists and my friends belief that God doesn't not exist then you now know of two opinions humans hold. Yet one of our opinions must be true as ultimately either God does exist or It does not. Therefore one of our opinions is simultaneously a opinion and a fact - even if we cannot know for sure which is which. Our not knowing something about reality doesn't change reality.

So some opinions are indeed facts.

Secondly not all facts are objective. If it is my belief that I am currently thinking about stars then the statement "I am thinking about stars" is subjectively true. Subjectively because the true - but a fact is simply any hypothetical property of the world which happens to actually be part of the world we live in. So if it is true that I am thinking about stars, then it is also a fact that at that time I was thinking about stars.

So some some facts are subjective.

Ergo - Facts can be opinions. Opinions can be facts. Not all facts are objective; some are subjective.

Why the **** did I get into this so called semantic debate with you all?

Well, that's because the implications of this mistaken view are very very far reaching.

If I believe that subjective simply means that opinions are there then I will have to believe that science is subjective because there are many opinions different pinions on the validity of so called "scientific truths" even within science itself - nevermind when we start considering the views of woo-woos too.

Furthermore if I believe subjective = opinions then I will have to believe the quality of music is subjective. The quality of art in general is subjective. I will have to believe that beauty is subjective. I will have to believe that morality is subjective.

But all of these things seem unlikely to be true. From a materialist perspective - which is the most common meta-physical perspective among philosophers and scientists - it is very difficult to explain how any of these things could actually be subjective under the proper definition of such. This makes people not only view the subjects incorrectly but it undermines proper research in them which could tell us SOOOOOOOO much about them and solve so many problems. Look at how much extra funding breast cancer gets because the public "think it is worth it" even though cancer funding on the whole is pretty damn cost inefficient in terms of money spent and health outcomes gained...

And you could say well why don't we just abandon the original definitions of subjective/objective and replace them with the contemporary ones?

Well that would be stupid since those original definitions are fundamental concepts in meta-physics and epistemology and are very useful and while the current concepts are also useful we have other words that are perfectly well understood to use in place of them anyway - opinion and fact.

Thoughts?
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Biryani007
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TL;DR.


:lol:
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arfah
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I always like guys that people find ugly or weird looking eg Mesut Ozil how do you explain this?? Am I just abormal Name:  image.jpg
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TorpidPhil
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(Original post by Biryani007)
TL;DR.


:lol:
It took a lot of consideration to decide whether or not I should post this in the chat section or the philosophy section but I hate the philosophy section of most of the internet as it is full of pseudo-intellectuals. So I chose chat because I think philosophy should be chatted about anyway

(Original post by arfah)
I always like guys that people find ugly or weird looking eg Mesut Ozil how do you explain this?? Am I just abormal Name:  image.jpg
Views: 133
Size:  124.5 KB
This is hardly the correct thread; but you are asking the wrong person. I would recommend asking a neuroscientist/psychologist/sociologist in that order. Unfortunately the neuroscientist doesn't quite know yet because people don't believe in objective beauty and so there hasn't been enough funding for research in what changes in one's brain cause changes in what we find attractive.Also, thank you for the follow! I would have posted it on your page but your VMs are deactivated it seems.
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arfah
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(Original post by TorpidPhil)
It took a lot of consideration to decide whether or not I should post this in the chat section or the philosophy section but I hate the philosophy section of most of the internet as it is full of pseudo-intellectuals. So I chose chat because I think philosophy should be chatted about anyway

This is hardly the correct thread; but you are asking the wrong person. I would recommend asking a neuroscientist/psychologist/sociologist in that order. Unfortunately the neuroscientist doesn't quite know yet because people don't believe in objective beauty and so there hasn't been enough funding for research in what changes in one's brain cause changes in what we find attractive.Also, thank you for the follow! I would have posted it on your page but your VMs are deactivated it seems.
Ahh true was just wondering why I always like stuff no one likes :lol:. An You're welcome 😘
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TorpidPhil
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Dead thread is dead. Move it to philosophy if you want mods.
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starlight82
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I came here for the tea
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TorpidPhil
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(Original post by starlight82)
I came here for the tea
BYOT
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Emily.97
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Will be honest- didn't bother reading your paragraph.
The way I like to see it is through simplification. Objective: Factual. Subjective: Opinion.
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TorpidPhil
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(Original post by Emily.97)
Will be honest- didn't bother reading your paragraph.
The way I like to see it is through simplification. Objective: Factual. Subjective: Opinion.
And that's completely wrong - that's the point of this thread.

To quote from the wall of text:

"What society thinks it means:

Subjective = Anything concerning opinions.

Objective = Anything concerning facts.

Yes, you can see that as usual the general consensus has simplified things quite a lot. But they have made mistakes when doing so."
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starlight82
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(Original post by TorpidPhil)
BYOT

:tee:
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The_Blade
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(Original post by arfah)
I always like guys that people find ugly or weird looking eg Mesut Ozil how do you explain this?? Am I just abormal Name:  image.jpg
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He is hot

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TorpidPhil
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(Original post by arfah)
I always like guys that people find ugly or weird looking eg Mesut Ozil how do you explain this?? Am I just abormal Name:  image.jpg
Views: 133
Size:  124.5 KB
Further research suggests finding this man attractive is not actually that abnormal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cPahnADceI
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