Would you rather live in a communist or fascist state? Watch

CalT8
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Which would you prefer to live in and why?
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flibber
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You haven't given the type of communism you're referring to. Marxism? Trotskyism?

Or the 'communist' states we know of, like the Soviet Union (Stalinist/Leninist/state socialism)? The answer would vary depending on what people view as 'communism'.
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viddy9
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(Original post by CalT8)
Which would you prefer to live in and why?
There's no such thing as a communist state.

Communism is the philosophy promoting a stateless, classless society without money, or currency. We've only seen communist societies emerge on a few occasions: in the Spanish anarchist regions during the 1930s; in the Ukrainian Free Territories around 1920s; and, more recently, elements of communism have been implemented in the libertarian socialist societies in parts of Kurdistan, particularly Rojava, which have been instrumental in fighting ISIS.

If you're referring to state socialism (that is, a completely planned economy, with zero private ownership over the means of production), I'd obviously rather live in a state socialist society, because it would value equality, social justice and the means of production would be controlled by the public.

In a fascist society, by contrast, nationalism, which is a petty and irrational ideology, would be promoted, and hierarchical structures based upon social Darwinism would be promoted, thereby allowing for the discrimination against sections of society.

Fascism is an evil ideology.
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flibber
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(Original post by viddy9)
There's no such thing as a communist state.

Communism is the philosophy promoting a stateless, classless society without money, or currency. We've only seen communist societies emerge on a few occasions: in the Spanish anarchist regions during the 1930s; in the Ukrainian Free Territories around 1920s; and, more recently, elements of communism have been implemented in the libertarian socialist societies in parts of Kurdistan, particularly Rojava, which have been instrumental in fighting ISIS.

If you're referring to state socialism, I'd obviously rather live in a state socialist society, because it would value equality, social justice and the means of production would be controlled by the public.

In a fascist society, by contrast, nationalism, which is a petty and irrational ideology, would be promoted, and hierarchical structures based upon social Darwinism would be promoted, thereby allowing for the discrimination against sections of society.

Fascism is an evil ideology.
What does the state do if the majority of the people decide against state socialism? Plus there's the familiar argument of state socialism reducing the efficiency and quality of products/production.
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L'Evil Fish
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'Communist'.
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Plantagenet Crown
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Communist.
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viddy9
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(Original post by flibber)
What does the state do if the majority of the people decide against state socialism? Plus there's the familiar argument of state socialism reducing the efficiency and quality of products/production.
We were given the choice between two forms of governance: state socialism and fascism, and were asked which we would like to live in.

I'm not arguing in favour of state socialism, though, because I'm not a state socialist (if there is to be a state, mixed-market economies taking the best bits of socialism and capitalism seem to work best, so I suppose you could call me a supporter of social democracy), but I'd certainly prefer it to fascism.
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arfah
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Fascist state without doubt. I don't mind one single leader/party taking control if it provides stability to a nation. Also a state where toilet cleaners and brain surgeons would be paid the same, is probably one of the worst messed up ideas ever.
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L'Evil Fish
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(Original post by arfah)
Fascist state without doubt. I don't mind one single leader/party taking control if it provides stability to a nation. Also a state where toilet cleaners and brain surgeons would be paid the same, is probably one of the worst messed up ideas ever.
If everyone's living happily and have the things they want I don't see the problem with that.

Toilet cleaners are needed (probably more so than brain surgeons). Those who want to become brain surgeons would be doing so because they want to help, which is what all the medics here say they want to do (despite some being in it for the money) so it should be fine.

If everyone can have the food they want, the houses they want,go on holidays where they like, then having different professions for same pay is fine.

There would still be a prestige associated with surgeons, just not in the sense of financial elitism.

Not everyone's a genius, and it's not their fault. Might as well put them in laborious jobs
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flibber
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(Original post by viddy9)
We were given the choice between two forms of governance: state socialism and fascism, and were asked which we would like to live in.

I'm not arguing in favour of state socialism, though, because I'm not a state socialist, but I'd certainly prefer it to fascism.
What we view as state socialism would still vary depending on whether one talks about a country looking like Sweden (not formally socialist,. but where the social democratic party have won most elections), or somewhere along the likes of the USSR, which failed partly because the government was unable to supply the needs of the people, and where the vanguard (supposed to represent the people) turned against the people towards the end (1991 attempted coup d'etat).

If the former, yes, state socialism by miles. If the latter, I'd be off to space by now.
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CalT8
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(Original post by flibber)
You haven't given the type of communism you're referring to. Marxism? Trotskyism?

Or the 'communist' states we know of, like the Soviet Union (Stalinist/Leninist/state socialism)? The answer would vary depending on what people view as 'communism'.
Just communism in general, you can choose your own types and state why you'd rather live in that if you wish.
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ChaoticButterfly
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(Original post by flibber)
What does the state do if the majority of the people decide against state socialism?
I would assume in the OP's question it is a dictatorship.
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flibber
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(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
I would assume in the OP's question it is a dictatorship.
Would it be one where dissenters would be as easily silenced as in a fascist state?
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viddy9
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(Original post by flibber)
Yet state socialism would still vary depending on whether one talks about a country looking like Sweden (not formally socialist,. but where the social democratic party have won most elections), or somewhere along the likes of the USSR, which failed partly because the government was unable to supply the needs of the people, and where the vanguard (supposed to represent the people) turned against the people towards the end (1991 coup d'etat). I also dislike the brutality of past state socialist governments.

If the former, yes, state socialism. If the latter, I'd be off to space by now.
I believe that the vast majority of societies in the world today have mixed-market economies, but range from 'more socialist', such as in Scandinavia, to 'more capitalist', such as in the United States. Social democracies, such as those in Scandinavia, seem to combine the best elements of socialism and capitalism.

Fascism, of course, has been just as brutal, most prominently in Nazi Germany, as well as in Spain, Portugal and elsewhere.

When I talk of state socialism, I am not making any assumptions as to whether it would be totalitarian or not. Fascism, by contrast, is inherently authoritarian.

If the OP is asking whether I'd rather have lived in the USSR or Nazi Germany, I'd have chosen the USSR. If it were between the USSR and fascist Spain, I'd have chosen the USSR, particularly after Stalin had died.

And, generically, there's no reason whatsoever for a state socialist society to be authoritarian or totalitarian. The main requirement is that the public own all of the means of production.
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arfah
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(Original post by L'Evil Fish)
If everyone's living happily and have the things they want I don't see the problem with that.

Toilet cleaners are needed (probably more so than brain surgeons). Those who want to become brain surgeons would be doing so because they want to help, which is what all the medics here say they want to do (despite some being in it for the money) so it should be fine.

If everyone can have the food they want, the houses they want,go on holidays where they like, then having different professions for same pay is fine.

There would still be a prestige associated with surgeons, just not in the sense of financial elitism.

Not everyone's a genius, and it's not their fault. Might as well put them in laborious jobs
Well thing is some people can do better, they choose not to be because they might be lazy. A communist state would probably encourage laziness. If I knew I was going to be paid the same in any job, I don't think I'd try hard/put much effort in because at the end of the day my salary will be the same and I wouldn't be rewarded for the extra effort I put in.
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ChaoticButterfly
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(Original post by CalT8)
Just communism in general, you can choose your own types and state why you'd rather live in that if you wish.
Well in that case the utopian definition of communism, not the dungeons that most attempts at communism on a large scale turn into. There is no such thing as a state in a communist society. See the problem?

So a high tech post scarcity anacrho-communist society it is then. Without a doubt.
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ChaoticButterfly
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(Original post by flibber)
Would it be one where dissenters would be as easily silenced as in a fascist state?
Are there any others?

You could in theory have a society where the population elects to have all economic activity controlled by the state I guess with free elections etc. I wouldn't want to live in that personally.

To me state socialism is an oxymoron. You just replace one class system with another. Like how the red bureaucrats replace the old class system in Russia. Animal farm style.
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L'Evil Fish
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(Original post by arfah)
Well thing is some people can do better, they choose not to be because they might be lazy. A communist state would probably encourage laziness. If I knew I was going to be paid the same in any job, I don't think I'd try hard/put much effort in because at the end of the day my salary will be the same and I wouldn't be rewarded for the extra effort I put in.
Well the extra effort is rewarded by a sense of prestige anyway. If you tell someone you're a neurosurgeon, it gets some respect.

If that's not enough for you, then that's a personal thing.

I'm sure there are other incentives attached. Not just money.
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CalT8
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(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
Well in that case the utopian definition of communism, not the dungeons that most attempts at communism on a large scale turn into. There is no such thing as a state in a communist society. See the problem?

So a high tech post scarcity anacrho-communist society it is then. Without a doubt.
That's gone completely past my extremely limited political knowledge haha. I was just interested in seeing if people would rather an extreme left or extreme right government, as the left seems to be taking bit of a beating recently.
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Serine Soul
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Communist
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