State schoolers get to A* courses w/Bs Watch

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How leading universities favour state school pupils: 'Social engineering' means they can get on to A* courses with B gradesState school pupils more likely to be admitted to a Russell Group university with B and C grades than their privately educated peersGrade differences for entry sometimes ranged between two whole gradesGenerous offers are given if pupils come from poorly performing schoolsRead more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz3hd3uQPNG Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Teenagers from state schools are winning places at elite universities with lower A-level grades than those from independent schools, research reveals.The latest official figures show pupils from the state sector are much more likely to be admitted to a Russell Group university with B and C grades than their privately educated peers.These entrants are also less likely to have obtained A or A* grades.An audit by the Daily Mail also found many top institutions are giving state school pupils offers which are up to two grades lower than course entry requirements. +3The latest official figures show pupils from the state sector are more likely to be admitted to a Russell Group university with B and C grades than their privately educated peers+3Russell Group director-general Dr Wendy Piatt said raw grades are considered in a broader context, 'but admission to university is and should be based on merit'Generous offers are given if pupils come from poorly performing schools, low income families or live in 'low participation neighbourhoods'.The figures emerged as universities strive to fulfil ever more ambitious government targets on social mobility, which are aimed at helping bright but disadvantaged pupils reach their potential. But yesterday critics said the selection process was too crude and questioned whether it was the right way to help those most in need.RELATED ARTICLESSHARE THIS ARTICLEShareChris McGovern, of the Campaign for Real Education, said: 'Lowering the bar is unfair on students who got the top grades and it also means people may be entering universities for which they are ill-equipped. It could have a dumbing down effect.'Social engineering is not the answer. The way forward is to focus on improving schools so that students can be selected on merit.'The student information website BestCourse4me.com analysed A-level grades held by students entering 20 of the 24 Russell Group universities in the academic year 2012/2013 – the latest available.Using data from the Higher Education Statistics Agency, they found that those from state schools have lower grades on average. Around 54 per cent of the qualifications held by independent school pupils entering the 20 universities were either A* or A at A-level. This fell to 44 per cent among state entrants.+3Chris McGovern said: 'Social engineering is not the answer. The way forward is to focus on improving schools so that students can be selected on merit'The grades B and C made up 25 per cent of the marks received by state entrants, compared with only 17 per cent among independent school students.This pattern was most apparent at the less selective institutions such as King's College London and Newcastle University.At highly selective universities including Oxford, Cambridge and Imperial College, private school pupils appeared to be being admitted with more A* grades, and state school pupils with more A grades.Under guidelines set out by the Government's Office for Fair Access, universities must engage in schemes to encourage poorer pupils to apply or risk forfeiting their right to charge £9,000 fees.An audit of their 'access agreements' found many are admitting students with lower grades if they fulfil deprivation criteria.The Realising Opportunities scheme – which involves 16 universities including Bristol, UCL, Exeter, Warwick and York – allows tutors to give offers which are two grades below course entry requirements.Entry rates to higher education for 18-year-olds from the most disadvantaged neighbourhoods of England have increased by over 60 per cent since 2006. But those from the most advantaged areas are still seven times more likely to enter a university with the highest entry requirements than those from disadvantaged areas.Russell Group director-general Dr Wendy Piatt said raw grades are considered in a broader context, 'but admission to university is and should be based on merit'.Dr Lee Elliot Major, chief executive of the Sutton Trust said: ‘At present you are over eight times more likely to go to our top universities if you are from a rich area than from a poor area, so improving access is vital if we are not to lose out on talented young people.‘Many of the world’s leading universities recognise that it is harder to excel academically in some schools than others, and use contextual admissions to recruit bright students from less advantaged backgrounds.‘In this country, some of our best universities are doing the same and we support them in this, but it is often linked to measures like extra mentoring and residential courses. 'The evidence is that where young people are recruited on this basis, they do as well as those with slightly higher grades at university, which testifies to their often having had to work harder than those with the better grades to get there in the first place.’www.bestcourse4me.com is an independent, free website which shows the link between what you study at A level and university, what you earn and the jobs you can get.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz3hd3xLOvK
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MagicJigsaw
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To be fair, a lot of state schools perform far, far worse than private schools which mean that they miss out on a top of top university places through no fault of their own. I've been to both a state and private school: at GCSE in a state school I got 2A*s, 5As, 1B, 2Cs and 1D at GCSE, then when I moved to a private school I got 90%+ in every subject at AS.
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Rory :)
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Well if this information is true. It needs to stop. It should be one rule for everyone.
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llys
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I think everyone should be able to get into "A* courses" with B grades.
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(Original post by Little Toy Gun)
How leading universities favour state school pupils: 'Social engineering' means they can get on to A* courses with B gradesState school pupils more likely to be admitted to a Russell Group university with B and C grades than their privately educated peersGrade differences for entry sometimes ranged between two whole gradesGenerous offers are given if pupils come from poorly performing schoolsRead more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz3hd3uQPNG Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Teenagers from state schools are winning places at elite universities with lower A-level grades than those from independent schools, research reveals.The latest official figures show pupils from the state sector are much more likely to be admitted to a Russell Group university with B and C grades than their privately educated peers.These entrants are also less likely to have obtained A or A* grades.An audit by the Daily Mail also found many top institutions are giving state school pupils offers which are up to two grades lower than course entry requirements. +3The latest official figures show pupils from the state sector are more likely to be admitted to a Russell Group university with B and C grades than their privately educated peers+3Russell Group director-general Dr Wendy Piatt said raw grades are considered in a broader context, 'but admission to university is and should be based on merit'Generous offers are given if pupils come from poorly performing schools, low income families or live in 'low participation neighbourhoods'.The figures emerged as universities strive to fulfil ever more ambitious government targets on social mobility, which are aimed at helping bright but disadvantaged pupils reach their potential. But yesterday critics said the selection process was too crude and questioned whether it was the right way to help those most in need.RELATED ARTICLESSHARE THIS ARTICLEShareChris McGovern, of the Campaign for Real Education, said: 'Lowering the bar is unfair on students who got the top grades and it also means people may be entering universities for which they are ill-equipped. It could have a dumbing down effect.'Social engineering is not the answer. The way forward is to focus on improving schools so that students can be selected on merit.'The student information website BestCourse4me.com analysed A-level grades held by students entering 20 of the 24 Russell Group universities in the academic year 2012/2013 – the latest available.Using data from the Higher Education Statistics Agency, they found that those from state schools have lower grades on average. Around 54 per cent of the qualifications held by independent school pupils entering the 20 universities were either A* or A at A-level. This fell to 44 per cent among state entrants.+3Chris McGovern said: 'Social engineering is not the answer. The way forward is to focus on improving schools so that students can be selected on merit'The grades B and C made up 25 per cent of the marks received by state entrants, compared with only 17 per cent among independent school students.This pattern was most apparent at the less selective institutions such as King's College London and Newcastle University.At highly selective universities including Oxford, Cambridge and Imperial College, private school pupils appeared to be being admitted with more A* grades, and state school pupils with more A grades.Under guidelines set out by the Government's Office for Fair Access, universities must engage in schemes to encourage poorer pupils to apply or risk forfeiting their right to charge £9,000 fees.An audit of their 'access agreements' found many are admitting students with lower grades if they fulfil deprivation criteria.The Realising Opportunities scheme – which involves 16 universities including Bristol, UCL, Exeter, Warwick and York – allows tutors to give offers which are two grades below course entry requirements.Entry rates to higher education for 18-year-olds from the most disadvantaged neighbourhoods of England have increased by over 60 per cent since 2006. But those from the most advantaged areas are still seven times more likely to enter a university with the highest entry requirements than those from disadvantaged areas.Russell Group director-general Dr Wendy Piatt said raw grades are considered in a broader context, 'but admission to university is and should be based on merit'.Dr Lee Elliot Major, chief executive of the Sutton Trust said: ‘At present you are over eight times more likely to go to our top universities if you are from a rich area than from a poor area, so improving access is vital if we are not to lose out on talented young people.‘Many of the world’s leading universities recognise that it is harder to excel academically in some schools than others, and use contextual admissions to recruit bright students from less advantaged backgrounds.‘In this country, some of our best universities are doing the same and we support them in this, but it is often linked to measures like extra mentoring and residential courses. 'The evidence is that where young people are recruited on this basis, they do as well as those with slightly higher grades at university, which testifies to their often having had to work harder than those with the better grades to get there in the first place.’www.bestcourse4me.com is an independent, free website which shows the link between what you study at A level and university, what you earn and the jobs you can get.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz3hd3xLOvK
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
It's wrong but It shouldn't surprise you. The whole state education system is filled with the Frankfurt School agenda. It was been for at least 3 generations.



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ForgottenApple
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(Original post by MagicJigsaw)
To be fair, a lot of state schools perform far, far worse than private schools which mean that they miss out on a top of top university places through no fault of their own. I've been to both a state and private school: at GCSE in a state school I got 2A*s, 5As, 1B, 2Cs and 1D at GCSE, then when I moved to a private school I got 90%+ in every subject at AS.
Doesn't mean ****

Private educated for GCSE, one of the best schools in country
3A*4A3B
AS at some randy ass college
4 x90%+


And yes the fact they lower grade requirements is ridiculous.
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OGGUS
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erm does this count for state colleges? With the offers?
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lllllllllll
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Wait a second, are private school pupils getting into Russel Group Universities with B and C grades as well though?

I got a D in French, C in Classical Civilisation, 2 Bs at GCSE and got an offer at Imperial. I also know some mates who got Bs at AS and also got offers from unis like LSE. We all went to private schools.
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MagicJigsaw
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(Original post by ForgottenApple)
Doesn't mean ****

Private educated for GCSE, one of the best schools in country
3A*4A3B
AS at some randy ass college
4 x90%+


And yes the fact they lower grade requirements is ridiculous.
Obviously it does. It's a proven fact that better education = better grades, otherwise parents wouldn't bother forking out £15,000+ a year to send their kids to a private school. If you don't lower requirements for state school pupils slightly, then people who can't afford a decent education aren't going to get into good universities and improve social mobility.
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Moonstruck16
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Pretty **** state school for GCSE: 6As and 6A*s.
One of the best state schools in the country for A-level that sent A LOT of people to Oxbridge each year: A*AA.

There are probably more private school students at my uni than state school students (well this is how many I've met anyway) and the state schoolers tend to find it easier because they had slightly less spoonfeeding beforehand in their education. They had to work for themselves, that's what I had to do. That being said, it is also a competitive university.
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(Original post by MagicJigsaw)
Obviously it does. It's a proven fact that better education = better grades, otherwise parents wouldn't bother forking out £15,000+ a year to send their kids to a private school. If you don't lower requirements for state school pupils slightly, then people who can't afford a decent education aren't going to get into good universities and improve social mobility.
One rule for everyone. Less spoonfeeding so work harder and impress, regardless of your background.

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MagicJigsaw
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(Original post by Moonstruck16)
One rule for everyone. Less spoonfeeding so work harder and impress, regardless of your background.

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So then rich children get an unfair advantage?
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University entrance isn't a computer game where you aquire the right number of grades and automatically level up.

Universities are trying to identify the applicants with the highest likelihood of succeeding on the course. There's a lot of evidence that state school applicants outperform private school applicants with the same grades once they get to university. University admissions policies are based on the evidence of success criteria for that course at that university.

This isn't a new thing - it has been happening for a decade at some universities and the success of contextual offer entrants at those universities has prompted it to spread across the sector.
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Moonstruck16
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(Original post by MagicJigsaw)
So then rich children get an unfair advantage?
It may be an unfair advantage but people who go to bad state schools and work their socks off and are less spoonfed will cope with university more. They'll probably have more of a work ethic. University is your first adult decision. You shouldn't be allowed to saik through just because of your class. Time to start living in the real world.

Also, an advantage is that they have more reason to think about whether they are applying for the right reasons, the right course, right uni etc.

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Sorry to spoil your bigoted argument but Widening Participation criteria usually doesn't specify 'state school'. The list of eligible schools at Bristol includes several private schools who have very low A level scores/University participation.

PS. We find that those from State Schools get better degrees and have a lower drop out rate. Probably because they really value the opportunity they have been offered instead of assuming they are entitled to it. And they are often much more fun to teach..
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MagicJigsaw
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(Original post by Moonstruck16)
It may be an unfair advantage but people who go to bad state schools and work their socks off and are less spoonfed will cope with university more. They'll probably have more of a work ethic. University is your first adult decision. You shouldn't be allowed to saik through just because of your class. Time to start living in the real world.

Also, an advantage is that they have more reason to think about whether they are applying for the right reasons, the right course, right uni etc.

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But that's if they get into a decent uni in the first place - most of those in under achieving state schools will never get into a Russell Group if the entry requirements aren't lowered for them
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(Original post by MagicJigsaw)
But that's if they get into a decent uni in the first place - most of those in under achieving state schools will never get into a Russell Group if the entry requirements aren't lowered for them
It's a harsh situation but the fact of the matter is that too many people are going to university and there other equally viable options and university is becoming overrated very quickly. If someone wants to go to a Russel Group university, they will work for it. Going to university isn't a right regardless of the schooling you've had up until that point. The way many A-levels are, if you're just given the basics and the specification, you can work for yourself. School support helps but isn't necessary and spoonfeeding is definitely not ok.

Anyway, the Russell Group isn't the end point. There are plenty of good universities that aren't in the Russell Group and plenty of bad universities that are.

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MagicJigsaw
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(Original post by Moonstruck16)
It's a harsh situation but the fact of the matter is that too many people are going to university and there other equally viable options and university is becoming overrated very quickly. If someone wants to go to a Russel Group university, they will work for it. Going to university isn't a right regardless of the schooling you've had up until that point. The way many A-levels are, if you're just given the basics and the specification, you can work for yourself. School support helps but isn't necessary and spoonfeeding is definitely not ok.

Anyway, the Russell Group isn't the end point. There are plenty of good universities that aren't in the Russell Group and plenty of bad universities that are.

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I absolutely agree that too many people are going to university. However, I feel like you're essentially saying 'we need less people to go to university so poor students get the short straw because they can't get a good education - tough luck'. That's not the solution. People who aren't actually academic, who are being encouraged to go to some diploma mill because they think 3 years of drinking and a degree in carpet studies will be useful are the problem. Genuinely bright poor students who can't get the grades for the top universities because the system has disadvantaged them are not.
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(Original post by MagicJigsaw)
I absolutely agree that too many people are going to university. However, I feel like you're essentially saying 'we need less people to go to university so poor students get the short straw because they can't get a good education - tough luck'. That's not the solution. People who aren't actually academic, who are being encouraged to go to some diploma mill because they think 3 years of drinking and a degree in carpet studies will be useful are the problem. Genuinely bright poor students who can't get the grades for the top universities because the system has disadvantaged them are not.
No what I'm saying is that it should be one rule for everyone. Not everyone who goes to state school is poor first of all, just like not everyone who goes to private school is rich.
The system sucks. A-level are a mess but just because you go to a dump of a state school does not mean that you should be allowed to get onto and A* course with a B. OCR in a private school is going to be the same as OCR in a state school in the ghetto. Yes the teaching will be different but working for yourself and not relying 100% on your teachers spoonfeeding you will bring you up to the same standard of 'knowledge' (i.e. teach yourself the specification and memorise it) as somebody who goes to a private school.

Education does not equal intelligence. Work hard and you'll get what you want doesn't always apply, but in terms of grades, it does. I'd be more concerned about university courses that require interviews. Chances are, a bad state school won't equip a student with the skills needed to conduct a winning interview. Then again, they may work it out for themselves and deliver a memorable (for good reasons) interview.

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(Original post by Moonstruck16)
No what I'm saying is that it should be one rule for everyone. Not everyone who goes to state school is poor first of all, just like not everyone who goes to private school is rich.
The system sucks. A-level are a mess but just because you go to a dump of a state school does not mean that you should be allowed to get onto and A* course with a B. OCR in a private school is going to be the same as OCR in a state school in the ghetto. Yes the teaching will be different but working for yourself and not relying 100% on your teachers spoonfeeding you will bring you up to the same standard of 'knowledge' (i.e. teach yourself the specification and memorise it) as somebody who goes to a private school.

Education does not equal intelligence. Work hard and you'll get what you want doesn't always apply, but in terms of grades, it does. I'd be more concerned about university courses that require interviews. Chances are, a bad state school won't equip a student with the skills needed to conduct a winning interview. Then again, they may work it out for themselves and deliver a memorable (for good reasons) interview.

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Admissions staff don't care that it is possible for someone from a state school to get an A*.

They care that someone with a B from school x will do as well as someone with an A* from school y. If they know a B is equivalent potential to succeed then they will offer a B.

University isn't a version of super sixth form where everyone just steps up to the next level based on simplistic measures - Every degree has students coming with different educational backgrounds and need bringing to a similar level of knowledge on the subject - students with IB will have a different set of knowledge to students with AP and students with A levels and students with Advanced Highers and students with an Access course.

Grades <> potential to succeed and are not viewed in isolation.
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