Andy Burnham vows 'autonomy' for Scottish Labour. Watch

SausageMan
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A vow you say? The vow for 'Devo-Max' never materialised along with the 100 day pledge, SLAB is just a shell of its former self so it's going to take more than just another false promise for me to vote for Scottish Labour.

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/pol...abour-1.892644
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L i b
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(Original post by SausageMan)
A vow you say? The vow for 'Devo-Max' never materialised along with the 100 day pledge, SLAB is just a shell of its former self so it's going to take more than just another false promise for me to vote for Scottish Labour.

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/pol...abour-1.892644
Yey, another Scottish politics thread.

In reality, the Scottish Labour Party is fairly autonomous now in policy terms. I can do and say what it likes. The outstanding issues are primarily structural: mainly that the General Secretary of Scottish Labour pretty much reports to the UK Labour General Secretary, rather than being directly accountable to the party's Scottish Executive Committee.

I assume given the context your '100 day pledge' referendum is Ed Miliband's plan to introduce a devolution bill in his first 100 days after winning the election. He lost the election, and the Bill - the current Scotland Bill - was given its first reading in Parliament by the Conservatives on 28 May.

No-one ever promised "devo max". It was an SNP invention, was never properly defined and, insofar as they fleshed it out, completely incompatible with remaining in the UK - and indeed completely incompatible with what not only Scottish Labour, but the Scottish Conservatives and Scottish Lib Dems campaigned for in the referendum: a country where resources are pooled and shared for mutual benefit. Instead, all committed to a strong set of new devolution proposals, which are not only being delivered, but are being fast-tracked.
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punkroses
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(Original post by SausageMan)
A vow you say? The vow for 'Devo-Max' never materialised along with the 100 day pledge, SLAB is just a shell of its former self so it's going to take more than just another false promise for me to vote for Scottish Labour.

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/pol...abour-1.892644
Labour are just desperate. Too far right for Scotland and too far left for England. :P
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i<3milkshake
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(Original post by punkroses)
Labour are just desperate. Too far right for Scotland and too far left for England. :P
Labour and Burnham can promise all they like, it makes no difference.

If Scotland wants more powers or a proper left wing party they vote SNP.
Forget what Andy "last election manifesto was the best ever" Burnham says. No one actually wants to listen to Labour. Not in anywhere in the UK.

By allowing the unions to choose Ed over Dave they made a catastrophic mistake. Now the unions are fawning over Corbyn and he looks to be the favourite to win.

Labour are insistent on digging their own grave it seems.
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Steeplechasing
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I wish Burnham would **** off. Labour is dead in Scotland. Hardly anyone wants to vote for them. Better just to accept defeat rather than trying to offer an oil branch to the Scots.
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tim_123
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If they want Devo max. How about handing over voting powers in Westminster. The fact that Scottish MPs can vote on English laws is a complete joke
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L i b
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(Original post by punkroses)
Labour are just desperate. Too far right for Scotland and too far left for England. :P
The SNP didn't win in Scotland by being left-wing - in a great many ways, they are to the right of Labour. Social attitudes are actually very similar between Scotland and England.

Which is the fundamental stupidity we are faced with now: the idea that somehow Labour values translate radically differently in Scotland and England. They don't. While I don't really see the need for formal restrictions against it, why should Scottish Labour have particularly different ideas from UK Labour? Simple accident of having more members of one faction in one part or another? That's nothing more than a recipe for weakening the party.

The thing is, I doubt many Labour people even believe in any significant difference. What they're doing is changing because of something nationalists shout at them: which is essentially accepting that the nationalists were right and that there was a problem. It's what they've been doing for decades in Scotland, and it has led them to the pathetic position they now find themselves in, because they're too scared to stand up to their biggest opponents.
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RayApparently
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(Original post by Steeplechasing)
I wish Burnham would **** off. Labour is dead in Scotland. Hardly anyone wants to vote for them. Better just to accept defeat rather than trying to offer an oil branch to the Scots.
24% isn't exactly 'hardly anyone'. I severely doubt the SNP will repeat their 2015 success in 2020.
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Steeplechasing
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(Original post by RayApparently)
24% isn't exactly 'hardly anyone'. I severely doubt the SNP will repeat their 2015 success in 2020.
Yes, well done for calling out my hyperbole. Doesn't change the fact that Scotland has made its opinion of Labour well know.
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SausageMan
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(Original post by L i b)
Yey, another Scottish politics thread.

In reality, the Scottish Labour Party is fairly autonomous now in policy terms. I can do and say what it likes. The outstanding issues are primarily structural: mainly that the General Secretary of Scottish Labour pretty much reports to the UK Labour General Secretary, rather than being directly accountable to the party's Scottish Executive Committee.

I assume given the context your '100 day pledge' referendum is Ed Miliband's plan to introduce a devolution bill in his first 100 days after winning the election. He lost the election, and the Bill - the current Scotland Bill - was given its first reading in Parliament by the Conservatives on 28 May.

No-one ever promised "devo max". It was an SNP invention, was never properly defined and, insofar as they fleshed it out, completely incompatible with remaining in the UK - and indeed completely incompatible with what not only Scottish Labour, but the Scottish Conservatives and Scottish Lib Dems campaigned for in the referendum: a country where resources are pooled and shared for mutual benefit. Instead, all committed to a strong set of new devolution proposals, which are not only being delivered, but are being fast-tracked.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...h-independence

In a panicked response to the growth in support for independence, Cameron, Clegg and Miliband promised ‘Devolution Max’ by next February. The phrase ‘devolution max’ – which is from the Steel Report and ‘Your Scotland, Your Voice’ report – includes the devolution of all tax and social security powers. Opinion polling after the vote found that 25% of No voters did so for more powers.

The Scotland Bill contains multiple 'veto clauses' for the Scottish Secretary to use at will. On subjects such as welfare, placing the Scot-rail franchise into national owner-ship etc. This does not reflect on the spirit of the smith commission.
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punkroses
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(Original post by i<3milkshake)
Labour and Burnham can promise all they like, it makes no difference.

If Scotland wants more powers or a proper left wing party they vote SNP.
Forget what Andy "last election manifesto was the best ever" Burnham says. No one actually wants to listen to Labour. Not in anywhere in the UK.

By allowing the unions to choose Ed over Dave they made a catastrophic mistake. Now the unions are fawning over Corbyn and he looks to be the favourite to win.

Labour are insistent on digging their own grave it seems.
Yeah, the real error was choosing Ed over David Miliband. It just went downhill from there I suppose.
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punkroses
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(Original post by L i b)
The SNP didn't win in Scotland by being left-wing - in a great many ways, they are to the right of Labour. Social attitudes are actually very similar between Scotland and England.

Which is the fundamental stupidity we are faced with now: the idea that somehow Labour values translate radically differently in Scotland and England. They don't. While I don't really see the need for formal restrictions against it, why should Scottish Labour have particularly different ideas from UK Labour? Simple accident of having more members of one faction in one part or another? That's nothing more than a recipe for weakening the party.

The thing is, I doubt many Labour people even believe in any significant difference. What they're doing is changing because of something nationalists shout at them: which is essentially accepting that the nationalists were right and that there was a problem. It's what they've been doing for decades in Scotland, and it has led them to the pathetic position they now find themselves in, because they're too scared to stand up to their biggest opponents.
But if they were right-wing, they wouldn't have succeeded in Scotland. Labour is very weak right now, I doubt they'll get close to power again for a while, they need to sort themselves out.
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i<3milkshake
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(Original post by Steeplechasing)
Yes, well done for calling out my hyperbole. Doesn't change the fact that Scotland has made its opinion of Labour well know.
Agree with you to be honest. How anyone can look at Labour's result in Scotland as anything other than an absolute spanking of the highest order is beyond me.

Scotland hasn't "made its opinion of Labour well known"-I think they have "made it clear it will take many elections to pass before they will even be half trustworthy or worth voting for).
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i<3milkshake
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(Original post by punkroses)
Yeah, the real error was choosing Ed over David Miliband. It just went downhill from there I suppose.
It is so funny listening to them calling each other "Blairite" as an insult. I mean hello, the guy won. Numerous times.

The problem with Labour is that they are just too focused on trying to talk about the message THEY want to talk about. Not talk about what the electorate do, what THEY want.

Scotland decided that the SNP was the kind of person who could get their voices heard. Burnham can say what he likes he is just as much of the Westminster elite as those he accuses of being so. And Scotland I imagine will see him in the same way.
A promise coming from a guy like that? Scotland will pass.
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L i b
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(Original post by punkroses)
But if they were right-wing, they wouldn't have succeeded in Scotland.
Why not? The Conservatives did very well in Scotland in my parents' generation. The SNP still failed to best the Tories' achievements in Scotland in the 1950s and get more than half of the popular vote.

The rhetoric of the left is attractive, but actually doing left-wing things is difficult. Equally the vast majority of people are relatively comfortable, looking to be more comfortable, but want the cuddily sense that they are doing good as well. The SNP have harnessed this pretty effectively: giving the sense that they're doing things about poverty while cutting anti-poverty schemes, while doling out things like free university tuition to the middle classes.

Scotland isn't particularly left-wing, it's that the Conservatives did what Labour are doing and got themselves into a pretty terrible state. They didn't look competent and lost a generation: a downturn in their electoral fortunes, badly handled, created an event taking them close to extinction.

But let's not forget for a second that the SNP's core areas until the last election were former Tory heartlands: Angus, Perthshire, Moray, Banff. Many of their voters are former Conservative voters, and it wasn't because of any sort of Tory shift to the right that they stopped - they were voting, as Scotland did, in pretty respectable numbers for Margaret Thatcher.

Labour's demise in Scotland was very similar to its demise in England, and for much the same reasons: they didn't look competent or credible any more. They moved away from the centre, where Tony Blair romped home in both. This isn't a left or right thing, it's a Labour Party thing - and they really need to have a good, hard look at themselves.
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L i b
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(Original post by SausageMan)
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...h-independence

In a panicked response to the growth in support for independence, Cameron, Clegg and Miliband promised ‘Devolution Max’ by next February. The phrase ‘devolution max’ – which is from the Steel Report and ‘Your Scotland, Your Voice’ report – includes the devolution of all tax and social security powers. Opinion polling after the vote found that 25% of No voters did so for more powers.
Except of course, that they didn't. In fact, they explicitly ruled it out. All three parties, before the referendum, had spelt out their positions on more powers in fairly comprehensive reports: for the Conservatives, the report of the Strathclyde Commission; for the Lib Dems, Federalism: the best future for Scotland and for Labour, Powers for a Purpose.

In fact, across most areas the outcome of the Smith Commission was far more extensive than what the three parties proposed. Not only was there more powers for the Scottish Parliament, there were substantially more than was suggested.

The "next February" stuff is just made-up. As is what you've said about levels of devolution. I hope you appreciate that by just saying things that aren't true, people will stop believing you.

As for this opinion polling, what opinion poll was this in? Please feel free to link me to it.

The Scotland Bill contains multiple 'veto clauses' for the Scottish Secretary to use at will. On subjects such as welfare, placing the Scot-rail franchise into national owner-ship etc. This does not reflect on the spirit of the smith commission.
On welfare, the Smith Commission agreed Universal Credit would be a reserved benefit with flexibilities for the Scottish Parliament, but these have to be agreed between both parties. As the Bill makes clear, such consent will not be unreasonably withheld.

There is no role for the Scottish Secretary in regard railway franchising in the Bill as it stands. There are a few other technical provisions, but all it really does is insert into the Railways Act 1993 the words "Subsection (1) does not prevent a public sector operator from being a franchisee in relation to a Scottish franchise agreement".

Anyway, we're drifting here. You stated that "devomax" was promised before the referendum - whatever that is. This is entirely false: it was ruled out, and extensively campaigned on. Even if you swallow the SNP's crap that the Scotland Bill (which isn't even finalised) does not meet the Smith Commission agreement, that agreement was post-referendum.
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Reformed2010
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(Original post by Steeplechasing)
I wish Burnham would **** off. Labour is dead in Scotland. Hardly anyone wants to vote for them. Better just to accept defeat rather than trying to offer an oil branch to the Scots.
(Original post by i<3milkshake)
It is so funny listening to them calling each other "Blairite" as an insult. I mean hello, the guy won. Numerous times.

The problem with Labour is that they are just too focused on trying to talk about the message THEY want to talk about. Not talk about what the electorate do, what THEY want.

Scotland decided that the SNP was the kind of person who could get their voices heard. Burnham can say what he likes he is just as much of the Westminster elite as those he accuses of being so. And Scotland I imagine will see him in the same way.
A promise coming from a guy like that? Scotland will pass.
(Original post by RayApparently)
24% isn't exactly 'hardly anyone'. I severely doubt the SNP will repeat their 2015 success in 2020.
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punkroses
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(Original post by L i b)
Why not? The Conservatives did very well in Scotland in my parents' generation. The SNP still failed to best the Tories' achievements in Scotland in the 1950s and get more than half of the popular vote.

The rhetoric of the left is attractive, but actually doing left-wing things is difficult. Equally the vast majority of people are relatively comfortable, looking to be more comfortable, but want the cuddily sense that they are doing good as well. The SNP have harnessed this pretty effectively: giving the sense that they're doing things about poverty while cutting anti-poverty schemes, while doling out things like free university tuition to the middle classes.

Scotland isn't particularly left-wing, it's that the Conservatives did what Labour are doing and got themselves into a pretty terrible state. They didn't look competent and lost a generation: a downturn in their electoral fortunes, badly handled, created an event taking them close to extinction.

But let's not forget for a second that the SNP's core areas until the last election were former Tory heartlands: Angus, Perthshire, Moray, Banff. Many of their voters are former Conservative voters, and it wasn't because of any sort of Tory shift to the right that they stopped - they were voting, as Scotland did, in pretty respectable numbers for Margaret Thatcher.

Labour's demise in Scotland was very similar to its demise in England, and for much the same reasons: they didn't look competent or credible any more. They moved away from the centre, where Tony Blair romped home in both. This isn't a left or right thing, it's a Labour Party thing - and they really need to have a good, hard look at themselves.
The fifties was 60 years ago, I doubt Scotland would vote Torie now after Margeret Thatcher and the conservatives anti-Scotland election campaign this year. But you are correct that Labour do look incompetent but that's simply not why they lost the majority of their Scottish seats, the SNP appeal more to Scotland because they are true to themselves, labour are missing that, they don't know what they want, they're very lost.
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punkroses
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(Original post by i<3milkshake)
It is so funny listening to them calling each other "Blairite" as an insult. I mean hello, the guy won. Numerous times.

The problem with Labour is that they are just too focused on trying to talk about the message THEY want to talk about. Not talk about what the electorate do, what THEY want.

Scotland decided that the SNP was the kind of person who could get their voices heard. Burnham can say what he likes he is just as much of the Westminster elite as those he accuses of being so. And Scotland I imagine will see him in the same way.
A promise coming from a guy like that? Scotland will pass.
So true, that's the problem with politicians these days, they're all really posh, haven't had normal jobs and in general they're not in touch with what normal people want, I think that's partly why the SNP have been so successful, the majority of SNP politicians are from normal backgrounds.
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Smack
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(Original post by punkroses)
The fifties was 60 years ago, I doubt Scotland would vote Torie now after Margeret Thatcher and the conservatives anti-Scotland election campaign this year. But you are correct that Labour do look incompetent but that's simply not why they lost the majority of their Scottish seats, the SNP appeal more to Scotland because they are true to themselves, labour are missing that, they don't know what they want, they're very lost.
What was anti-Scottish about the Conservatives' campaign this year?
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