Is the world too complex to not have had some kind of creator?

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tehforum
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#1
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#1
I'm looking for some responses to the above.

Also, I would appreciate some explanation of the Big Bang and the gradual development of life in general.

Thank you
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VannR
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#2
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#2
The design argument for God is inductive, and consequently the amount of strength that it has will be subject to the vested interests of the individual e.g. a scientist will dismiss it as resulting in a "God-of-the-Gaps" situation, whilst a theologian may find it to be compelling.

My personal view leads me to question the question: what makes us think that we can have an understanding of the complexity of the Universe, as far as we know it, and the nature of a creator that is sufficient for us to create a causal relationship between the two concepts? If we could answer this question, perhaps we could answer yours, but unfortunately there are further problems.

One of them is that in order for us to attempt to know enough about God in order to establish it as the creator of the Universe, we assume the existence of such a being, and thus we beg the question; another problem is that if God exists as an objective being (by all accounts, this is the case), it would be impossible for us to claim that our knowledge of the complexity of the world, conceptually relative as it is, could establish the existence of a link to something that is objective. The underlying problem here is that conceptual relativism poses a significant challenge to metaphysics in general - if all of our concepts are relative, it is impossible to know something which is objective e.g. God.

EDIT: I realise that this has little to do with the scientific basis for the Big Bang and the early Universe; I am approaching this issue from a philosophical perspective, which is what this problem (at least in my opinion) truly demands.
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Plantagenet Crown
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#3
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#3
I don't think so. Given the size of the universe, the chances of there being a planet that supports life are practically 100%.

And I'm not sure complexity is indicative of Deity, otherwise one can question how something as complex as God needed no creator.
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felamaslen
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#4
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#4
Saying "a creator exists" doesn't explain anything. Might as well say "a magician did it". You still have all your work to do, because you need to explain what created the creator.
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hayderm
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#5
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#5
(Original post by felamaslen)
Saying "a creator exists" doesn't explain anything. Might as well say "a magician did it". You still have all your work to do, because you need to explain what created the creator.
From an Islamic point of view to my understanding, you cant have space without time and time without space so before god made the world the concept of 'time' dosent even exist. So i don't think it would be right to say who made God then or who came before him.

we are told there are limitations to the human mind which cannot comprehend the answers to these questions, now that does sound like a shut up and don't ask type of statement but if your a believer you have so much trust in your God that your fine with it and understand its not to your own benefit. From outside the religion i understand the perception is alot different but its about where you stand in the matter. The same thing with 'Islam allows slavery' yes its true but theres a massive difference between Slavery islam talks about and Slavery that took place in 1600s-1900s or so.
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felamaslen
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#6
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#6
(Original post by hayderm)
From an Islamic point of view to my understanding, you cant have space without time and time without space so before god made the world the concept of 'time' dosent even exist. So i don't think it would be right to say who made God then or who came before him.

we are told there are limitations to the human mind which cannot comprehend the answers to these questions, now that does sound like a shut up and don't ask type of statement but if your a believer you have so much trust in your God that your fine with it and understand its not to your own benefit. From outside the religion i understand the perception is alot different but its about where you stand in the matter. The same thing with 'Islam allows slavery' yes its true but theres a massive difference between Slavery islam talks about and Slavery that took place in 1600s-1900s or so.
Islamic slavery only really began to end in the 1960s. What is the difference between slavery Islam talks about and Islamic slavery in the period you mentioned (1600s-1900s)? Or did I misunderstand you?
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Plantagenet Crown
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#7
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#7
(Original post by hayderm)
From an Islamic point of view to my understanding, you cant have space without time and time without space so before god made the world the concept of 'time' dosent even exist. So i don't think it would be right to say who made God then or who came before him.

we are told there are limitations to the human mind which cannot comprehend the answers to these questions, now that does sound like a shut up and don't ask type of statement but if your a believer you have so much trust in your God that your fine with it and understand its not to your own benefit. From outside the religion i understand the perception is alot different but its about where you stand in the matter. The same thing with 'Islam allows slavery' yes its true but theres a massive difference between Slavery islam talks about and Slavery that took place in 1600s-1900s or so.
This is called Special Pleading in which people claim complex things need creators but that God doesn't, even though he's supposed to be the most complex thing in existence. If he doesn't need a creator then neither does the universe.
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Fullofsurprises
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#8
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#8
(Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
I don't think so. Given the size of the universe, the chances of there being a planet that supports life are practically 100%.

And I'm not sure complexity is indicative of Deity, otherwise one can question how something as complex as God needed no creator.
I know what you meant, but the chances of the universe supporting life are already provably 100%.

I'm quite certain that the cosmos is absolutely riddled with life of inconceivably varied forms and evolutionary paths. We are clearly just a grain of dust in a sandstorm.

It's hard to know what our 'purpose' is amongst such complexity, but I suppose the truth is that we are as valuable as anyone else in the universe and hopefully we will get to explore more and more of that. I don't think it will all be easy by any stretch, or without many dangers in the future, but the human race probably has a place and we should go for it.
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pjm600
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#9
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#9
(Original post by tehforum)
I'm looking for some responses to the above.

Also, I would appreciate some explanation of the Big Bang and the gradual development of life in general.

Thank you
response:

no
Spoiler:
Show
Why would a complex 'thing' require a creator more so than a non complex thing?
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hayderm
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#10
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#10
(Original post by felamaslen)
Islamic slavery only really began to end in the 1960s. What is the difference between slavery Islam talks about and Islamic slavery in the period you mentioned (1600s-1900s)? Or did I misunderstand you?
What I meant is that the difference between 'islamic slavery' and the slavery on the west between 1600-1900, so if u look at the rules in islam, your 'slave' must dress of the same quality as the owner, eat the same food, live in the same comfort and have the right to leave at anytime. So when u understand as to why islam allows it although the conditions arent acctually met since weve evolved so much, you can see what I mean by seeing with a different prespective from each side this is a big subject no doubt discussing the existence of god which is why I dont engage too much.
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TheWiseSalmon
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#11
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#11
The unnecessary complexity of many structures in living things reflects the fact that they evolved over millions of years by a blind process which has no end goal and simply works with what it has. If life were created, I'd expect to see structures and functions which were as simple and as efficient as possible, and not things which are messy and full of structures which clearly used to be used for something else but whose function has changed to perform a new purpose.

I don't buy any argument which involves something like "the universe appears to be created so there's a creator", because firstly it's essentially an argument from incredulity (ie. I can't believe that the universe came about by naturalistic means therefore it didn't) and secondly because, at least to me, it doesn't appear to be created.
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interact
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#12
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#12
It's funny when atheists claim that they're only a "speck of dust" when they have gone and made themselves the centre of the universe. Tick tock the clock is ticking
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Hamza33
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#13
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#13
The Quran supports the Big Bang theory. Best not to ask people here and maybe read some books or do some googling on religion and the creation of the universe.


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Plantagenet Crown
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#14
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#14
(Original post by Hamza33)
The Quran supports the Big Bang theory. Best not to ask people here and maybe read some books or do some googling on religion and the creation of the universe.


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No it doesn't. It's vague and incorrect in that it says the universe is expanding steadily when it isn't.

(Original post by interact)
It's funny when atheists claim that they're only a "speck of dust" when they have gone and made themselves the centre of the universe. Tick tock the clock is ticking
The clock's ticking for what?
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interact
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#15
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#15
(Original post by Plantagenet Crown)



The clock's ticking for what?
atheism destroying the planet
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interact
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#16
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#16
(Original post by VannR)
The design argument for God is inductive, and consequently the amount of strength that it has will be subject to the vested interests of the individual e.g. a scientist will dismiss it as resulting in a "God-of-the-Gaps" situation, whilst a theologian may find it to be compelling.

My personal view leads me to question the question: what makes us think that we can have an understanding of the complexity of the Universe, as far as we know it, and the nature of a creator that is sufficient for us to create a causal relationship between the two concepts? If we could answer this question, perhaps we could answer yours, but unfortunately there are further problems.

One of them is that in order for us to attempt to know enough about God in order to establish it as the creator of the Universe, we assume the existence of such a being, and thus we beg the question; another problem is that if God exists as an objective being (by all accounts, this is the case), it would be impossible for us to claim that our knowledge of the complexity of the world, conceptually relative as it is, could establish the existence of a link to something that is objective. The underlying problem here is that conceptual relativism poses a significant challenge to metaphysics in general - if all of our concepts are relative, it is impossible to know something which is objective e.g. God.

EDIT: I realise that this has little to do with the scientific basis for the Big Bang and the early Universe; I am approaching this issue from a philosophical perspective, which is what this problem (at least in my opinion) truly demands.
a part of us is objective
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felamaslen
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#17
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#17
(Original post by hayderm)
What I meant is that the difference between 'islamic slavery' and the slavery on the west between 1600-1900, so if u look at the rules in islam, your 'slave' must dress of the same quality as the owner, eat the same food, live in the same comfort and have the right to leave at anytime. So when u understand as to why islam allows it although the conditions arent acctually met since weve evolved so much, you can see what I mean by seeing with a different prespective from each side this is a big subject no doubt discussing the existence of god which is why I dont engage too much.
Wait, you're saying that Islamic slavery is different from other kinds of slavery (which?).

Anyway this discussion is not about slavery so I'll leave it at that.
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VannR
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#18
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#18
(Original post by interact)
a part of us is objective
Are you in any way going to justify that claim, or are you just speaking in order to be heard?
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Hamza33
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#19
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#19
(Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
No it doesn't. It's vague and incorrect in that it says the universe is expanding steadily when it isn't.




The clock's ticking for what?
The universe is expanding
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ArchLand
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#20
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#20
There is simply one answer: everything has a creator after the creation of Time.
there is good evidence that the universe had a beginning. This can be shown from the Laws of Thermodynamics the most fundamental laws of the physical sciences.
1st Law: The total amount of mass-energy in the universe is constant.
2nd Law: The amount of energy available for work is running out, or entropy is increasing to a maximum.
If the total amount of mass-energy is limited, and the amount of usable energy is decreasing, then the universe cannot have existed forever, otherwise it would already have exhausted all usable energy—the ‘heat death’ of the universe. For example, all radioactive atoms would have decayed, every part of the universe would be the same temperature, and no further work would be possible. So the obvious corollary is that the universe began a finite time ago with a lot of usable energy, and is now running down.

This is a short scientific answer to your question.
Religious sources are another way to support above claim. It does not matter if one is religious or not but those sources were here way before today. Some for thousands of years so they can be very supportive. One which is really intriguing is Quran in regards to space and the expansion of space + the creation of stars and Big Bang. Have a look at it. it is really resourceful. Then there are examples in Judaism and Buddhism as well.

Saying that, space has a powerful creator which his knowledge and power is way beyond our imagination.



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