STEM students - before calling arts easy - could read a 100 page plus law judgement and identify what the ratio is and what the obiter is?

Posted from TSR Mobile

Yeah probably.

Based on the 100 page plus journals they often have to read explaining, for one example, the periodic projective resolutions of almost koszul algebras, in order to construct one.

One big difference between mathematics and law is the depth of a definition. STEM people could google what those things are, and look at a few examples, and probably work with it just fine.

Reply 43

spurs9393

OP

13

Original post by The_Blade

Op to to bed pal

Posted from TSR Mobile

Maybe excelling in an arts subject would have allowed you to present a more valid and credible argument.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 44

Mad Vlad

19

Original post by spurs9393

This forum seems to be filled with people who believe that any subject other than STEM ones are ridiculous and a waste of time.

However, none of them realise it is much harder to succeed in arts subjects, simply because of the sheer amount of information, imagination and writing skills required. STEM requires no other than maths and a bit of memory.

The cleverest arts students will almost always be more than competent in, for example, maths. However it is not often you see STEM students excel in another subject; say history. The amount of times I've seen the A Level combination Maths, Further Maths, Physics & Chemistry is unbelievable.

I'm not trying to say STEM subjects are not intellectually stimulating. They just test a much narrower set of skills, whilst those who are good at them seem to dismiss other subjects as easy and a waste of time.

Frankly, I couldn't care less if your liberal arts degrees are "more difficult to succeed at". Congratulations on your apparent academic superiority. What matters in this debate is that people with STEM degrees contribute more, on average, to UK PLC, actually pay back their loans and get valuable, highly paid, highly skilled jobs in fields that they actually studied in, more frequently than arts degree holders.

Nobody cares that you went to St. Josephine's College, Oxbridge and read a D.Phil in the History of Art Philosophy. Hooray for you - a valid achievement, but not one I, personally, would hold in any particular regard. Sure, you'll kick my ass at University Challenge, but I don't profess to know anything about Art or Philosophy. Instead, I'm the one keeping your personal data safe and stopping you from being hacked. I'm also not worrying about how I'm going to afford to live between scarce research stipends and working a second job in Pret a Manger to make ends meet. I work in a job that I really enjoy, just as I'm sure you enjoy working in your field, but I'm being paid a ****load more.

Sure my STEM degree might have been "easier" than yours and my First Class degree from an Ex-Poly may not have been as "academically rigorous" as your (hypothetical) 2:2 from Oxbridge, but despite your academic smarts, who's playing the more shrewd game here? The prestige that comes from studying a pure academic discipline at a top university only exists if the person you're standing in front of actually values that prestige. Fundamentally, those that insist that arts degree holders are "better" than those that studied STEM degrees at uni are simply participating in a self-justifying academic circlejerk. Meanwhile, us STEM degree holders will carry on keeping the world turning because we really just don't care. :tongue:

Reply 45

.S.K.T.

14

What even this the purpose of this argument? - This seems like another one of the student room's ego boosting threads. How can anyone definitively say if humanities or science is more difficult than another? Whoever can be as black and white as stating one is more difficult than another most definitely will have a certain degree of ignorance towards the one they are not in favour of and adhere to their own selfish natural bias.

Can they not be both equally "rewarding, credible and challenging" in different ways, and compromise there?

Reply 46

username1862217

15

Original post by The_Blade

Says the guy who is one of the top physics students in one of the top unis!

Posted from TSR Mobile

Good luck in the labs and on the derivation, dissertation, and research side of STEM if you think it's all about memory. Plus the professors rarely write an exam where the answers can be found on Google or on the course. They are looking for original thinking as that is the main skill you need when you graduate.

Memory can only go so far. Originality is the rest.

Reply 47

toonervoustotalk

20

I cant draw to save my life but i can do science to save others :cool:

Reply 48

Proudhipster

1

Original post by Mad Vlad

Frankly, I couldn't care less if your liberal arts degrees are "more difficult to succeed at". Congratulations on your apparent academic superiority. What matters in this debate is that people with STEM degrees contribute more, on average, to UK PLC, actually pay back their loans and get valuable, highly paid, highly skilled jobs in fields that they actually studied in, more frequently than arts degree holders.

Nobody cares that you went to St. Josephine's College, Oxbridge and read a D.Phil in the History of Art Philosophy. Hooray for you - a valid achievement, but not one I, personally, would hold in any particular regard. Sure, you'll kick my ass at University Challenge, but I don't profess to know anything about Art or Philosophy. Instead, I'm the one keeping your personal data safe and stopping you from being hacked. I'm also not worrying about how I'm going to afford to live between scarce research stipends and working a second job in Pret a Manger to make ends meet. I work in a job that I really enjoy, just as I'm sure you enjoy working in your field, but I'm being paid a ****load more.

Sure my STEM degree might have been "easier" than yours and my First Class degree from an Ex-Poly may not have been as "academically rigorous" as your (hypothetical) 2:2 from Oxbridge, but despite your academic smarts, who's playing the more shrewd game here? The prestige that comes from studying a pure academic discipline at a top university only exists if the person you're standing in front of actually values that prestige. Fundamentally, those that insist that arts degree holders are "better" than those that studied STEM degrees at uni are simply participating in a self-justifying academic circlejerk. Meanwhile, us STEM degree holders will carry on keeping the world turning because we really just don't care. :tongue:

Reply 49

yabbayabba

17

Original post by Mad Vlad

Frankly, I couldn't care less if your liberal arts degrees are "more difficult to succeed at". Congratulations on your apparent academic superiority. What matters in this debate is that people with STEM degrees contribute more, on average, to UK PLC, actually pay back their loans and get valuable, highly paid, highly skilled jobs in fields that they actually studied in, more frequently than arts degree holders.

Nobody cares that you went to St. Josephine's College, Oxbridge and read a D.Phil in the History of Art Philosophy. Hooray for you - a valid achievement, but not one I, personally, would hold in any particular regard. Sure, you'll kick my ass at University Challenge, but I don't profess to know anything about Art or Philosophy. Instead, I'm the one keeping your personal data safe and stopping you from being hacked. I'm also not worrying about how I'm going to afford to live between scarce research stipends and working a second job in Pret a Manger to make ends meet. I work in a job that I really enjoy, just as I'm sure you enjoy working in your field, but I'm being paid a ****load more.

Sure my STEM degree might have been "easier" than yours and my First Class degree from an Ex-Poly may not have been as "academically rigorous" as your (hypothetical) 2:2 from Oxbridge, but despite your academic smarts, who's playing the more shrewd game here? The prestige that comes from studying a pure academic discipline at a top university only exists if the person you're standing in front of actually values that prestige. Fundamentally, those that insist that arts degree holders are "better" than those that studied STEM degrees at uni are simply participating in a self-justifying academic circlejerk. Meanwhile, us STEM degree holders will carry on keeping the world turning because we really just don't care. :tongue:

People go to uni for a variety of reasons; not everybody goes purely to get a well paid job.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 50

Mad Vlad

19

Original post by yabbayabba

People go to uni for a variety of reasons; not everybody goes purely to get a well paid job.

Posted from TSR Mobile

And they're welcome to study for that purpose. Just not at the expense of the tax payer, IMO.

Reply 51

Mad Vlad

19

Original post by .S.K.T.

What even this the purpose of this argument? - This seems like another one of the student room's ego boosting threads. How can anyone definitively say if humanities or science is more difficult than another? Whoever can be as black and white as stating one is more difficult than another most definitely will have a certain degree of ignorance towards the one they are not in favour of and adhere to their own selfish natural bias.

Can they not be both equally "rewarding, credible and challenging" in different ways, and compromise there?

Quite.

Reply 52

spurs9393

OP

13

Original post by Mad Vlad

Quite.

I posted this thread in response to the millions of 'STEM superiority' posts

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 53

The two eds

4

Original post by spurs9393

This forum seems to be filled with people who believe that any subject other than STEM ones are ridiculous and a waste of time.

However, none of them realise it is much harder to succeed in arts subjects, simply because of the sheer amount of information, imagination and writing skills required. STEM requires no other than maths and a bit of memory.

The cleverest arts students will almost always be more than competent in, for example, maths. However it is not often you see STEM students excel in another subject; say history. The amount of times I've seen the A Level combination Maths, Further Maths, Physics & Chemistry is unbelievable.

I'm not trying to say STEM subjects are not intellectually stimulating. They just test a much narrower set of skills, whilst those who are good at them seem to dismiss other subjects as easy and a waste of time.

Mwhahahahaha hahahaha, come back when you join the stem team you fool.

Reply 54

The_Blade

6

Original post by Keyhofi

Good luck in the labs and on the derivation, dissertation, and research side of STEM if you think it's all about memory. Plus the professors rarely write an exam where the answers can be found on Google or on the course. They are looking for original thinking as that is the main skill you need when you graduate.

Memory can only go so far. Originality is the rest.

says the guy whos birthday is in 11 days time

Reply 55

lledrith

15

I went to college for an Art and Design BTEC, then did a degree in Fine Art in 2009, followed by a PGCE.

I found that Art could be very hit and miss, a lot of the time your feedback and grades would be very dependent on the stylistic preferences of your tutors, who also (unsurprisingly) influenced the work created each term.

After the degree, I opened a gallery with a group of other artist graduates. It wasn't easy, and it was financially painful, since all of our income came from part-time work in an unrelated area (I was a supply teacher), artists renting the studio space, and Arts Council funding. Life was a never-ending stream of funding applications (which weren't always successful). :smile:

I decided I wasn't happy, so went back to college to study Chemistry, Physics, and Biology. I'm now about to begin a degree in Radiography off the back of this. Personally I have found some of the more abstract concepts easy to get to grips with, and I honestly feel like my background has helped ease me into the science subjects. It's been enjoyable to do something different with a more certain future.

I'm not sure why there really needs to be an 'us vs. them' approach when comparing STEM to non-STEM. They can both be difficult in different ways depending on your own individual strengths... But then, debating is fun. :smile:

Reply 56

yabbayabba

17

Original post by Mad Vlad

And they're welcome to study for that purpose. Just not at the expense of the tax payer, IMO.

You're entitled to your opinion. Compared to most other public expenditure though, tuition fees are nothing.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 57

math42

20

Edit: I didn't note what forum this is in so this stuff is mainly relevant to A Levels, sorry. :s-smilie:

Guessing by art subjects you refer to both arts and humanities (since you mention history). I should be reasonably qualified to comment on the latter here as I did the mentioned A Level combination but with English Literature instead of Chemistry, along with AS History.
To be fair, I probably spent a similar amount of time revising History as Physics (at AS of course) and my Physics performance was marginally better, even though at GCSE and before I had always been stronger with writing than maths/science. I'd say that the teaching is much more key in humanities - with STEM you can download a syllabus and have a revision guide handy and self-teaching is easy. With humanities, the aid of a teacher's experience seems to count more; it's otherwise hard to really nail down what exactly needs to be done to get marks.
Maths and Further Maths, though often suggested as amongst the hardest subjects, are a joke if you put in enough work. Physics is not a huge deal better (I did bomb all my Physics exams this year though :redface:

). Plus there is the subjectivity of marking that plagues humanities. Then again, the standard required in English Lit is sometimes worrying; I remember reading an essay at A2 that got full marks and the writing was poor, the points were hardly developed; it was just a dull, straightforward hitter of the "assessment objectives". This hardly teaches you much; if anything, the way humanities are delivered at A Level hurts our ability to write effective essays.