Destitute migrants with new born children.

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somethingbeautiful
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why always me
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Personally, i think it's fked up and heartless to even bring another person into this cruel, cursed world - poverty or no poverty

I hate my parents for bringing me into this world
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sdotd
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deport them all until we have a proper processing system
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desdemonata
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I agree it's heartless to bring a child into poverty, but people choose to do all kinds of selfish things. And lots of/most people want to have children, so it makes sense that a lot of people in poverty would still have children.

But also I'd point out that while not being able to afford contraception can be a factor, so can being uneducated about sex. Also, it's easy for you to say "I'd just abstain" - would you really? Your whole life? You'd become celibate just in case? I reckon people always search for outlets, things to make them feel better, escapes. And why wouldn't sex be one of those things?

And finally, remember that in some places it's a choice to have lots of children so they can work from a young age and earn money for the family. Yes, that is selfish, but as I said, people are selfish.
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BaconandSauce
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Have to agree with the OP

They are fleeing backward countries that have failed and are trying to get into societies that aren't and haven't but desperately want to continue with the ways 'back home'

I have little sympathy for these people and as you say to bring a child into this hell just make me have less sympathy for them
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Juichiro
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(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
Reading the news today I saw quite a few articles about the migrants in Greece


who have travelled from places such as Syria in order find a better life. A lot of them are heading to Greece and then on to wealthier European countries.

I'm sure we all have differing opinions about that matter in general but that's not what I'm focusing on here (personally, I feel that they are victims of circumstance and if I were them I'd probably do the same).

Anyway, I've noticed in quite a few pictures across a lot of articles that some of these migrants have young children - in some cases babies who are months old. Now, I'm a woman in my 20s and I live in a relatively wealthy country (UK) but I consciously choose not to have children because I know that at this point in my life I couldn't afford a child and it would be unfair on the child to live in relative poverty. What gets me is that these migrants are coming from poor, often violent, countries and they are having babies. I know some people might say ''they might not be able to afford contraception'' - but that's not good enough, they should abstain if they can't afford kids and have no contraception.

There maybe to instances where a woman has become pregnant against her will and that is a separate issue - we can't tell that from the pictures. But there will be instances where these children have been created with mutual consent and that's what I find incomprehensible.

Obviously, I'd want those children to be given aid and for their parents to be helped but their parents are causing problems that could be avoided and those children are likely to live in poverty for the rest of their lives. It seems crazy to want to put a child through such suffering.

Just to point out, I generally do not care what other people choose to do with their personal lives - I don't care what hair color they have, how they dress, who they want to be in a relationship with (so long as they're of age) or if they want to change their name to 'Mango Ferret Banana Queen' - IDGAF, but when people do things, intentionally or not, that negatively affect the lives of innocent people I find it incomprehensible. These adults are bringing innocent babies into a terrible set of circumstances and abject poverty - I just can't comprehend the rational of that or the level of irresponsibility that could accidentally lead to that.


Controversial topic, I know. I'm interested to hear people's opinions on this because it seems that you're not allowed to express this opinion without people thinking you are heartless. Personally, I think it's heartless to bring a child into poverty.
Agree. This does not apply to migrants but controversially enough to any poor person. The logical conclusion is that poor people should not have kids. Research shows they are more likely to score worse career-wise.

The darker side of this argument is that poor people are needed. Poor people are a great portion of the total population and the group with highest rates of reproduction (normally). Especially in the west, with aging population related issues looming over in the horizon, reproduction is needed to keep the population from aging too much (and thus depriving it of workers). What are they needed for? Manual labour is needed and AI is not developed enough to replace human manual labour. Thus, while it is an ethically right decision, when it comes to the pragmatics of it, it makes sense to allow poor people have children (within some limits, that is).
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username1628823
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You should ask them why they've decided to have children rather than speculating,
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Juichiro
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(Original post by desdemonata)
I agree it's heartless to bring a child into poverty, but people choose to do all kinds of selfish things. And lots of/most people want to have children, so it makes sense that a lot of people in poverty would still have children.

But also I'd point out that while not being able to afford contraception can be a factor, so can being uneducated about sex. Also, it's easy for you to say "I'd just abstain" - would you really? Your whole life? You'd become celibate just in case? I reckon people always search for outlets, things to make them feel better, escapes. And why wouldn't sex be one of those things?

And finally, remember that in some places it's a choice to have lots of children so they can work from a young age and earn money for the family. Yes, that is selfish, but as I said, people are selfish.
If it comes to that, obviously just abstaining is useless. Hence, you undergo chemical castration. The problem with making yourself better by reproductive sex (which amounts to making humans) is that you are making another human suffer (by making him live a life of poverty).

If your argument is "people are selfish, nothing can be done", then you could have saved yourself from writing all those paragraphs.
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Horsedobbin
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Well they have gone to Greece but what I would like to know is what they are going to do to improve the Greek economy. It's a fair question-if you go off to another country you can expect to earn a Living, and so what are they going to do to earn a living in Greece when there is very high unemployment and people searching in rubbish bins for food? Fair enough, they want a better life, but then doesn't everyone? What gives them the right to have a better life when the ordinary people of Greece don't have it in their own country and now have to cope with the burden of tens of thousands of economic migrants?
Are they bringing capital into the country? If someone wants to go to live in Australia , coming from the UK , they can't go unless they have skills in demand or a lot of money to invest in the country. And if I want to go off and live in say Mongolia are they going to welcome me as a refugee with open arms just because I got there?
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desdemonata
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(Original post by Juichiro)
If it comes to that, obviously just abstaining is useless. Hence, you undergo chemical castration. The problem with making yourself better by reproductive sex (which amounts to making humans) is that you are making another human suffer (by making him live a life of poverty).

If your argument is "people are selfish, nothing can be done", then you could have saved yourself from writing all those paragraphs.
People are selfish. That is the crux of a lot of ****ty stuff that happens in the world.

It was hardly an essay though :lol:
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Juichiro
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(Original post by desdemonata)
People are selfish. That is the crux of a lot of ****ty stuff that happens in the world.

It was hardly an essay though :lol:
Now that's a better way of putting it.
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Juichiro
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(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
x
I guess your Philosophy degree is useful after all.
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desdemonata
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(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
Yes, I can understand that it's quite a universal human yearning to want children but I also believe that rational thought should override that urge/yearning if you know that the child would be born into poverty.

It doesn't take a genius to know that if someone puts their penis into a vagina then there is a great possibility that a baby could be created. I don't go for the argument of lack of education. Lack of education concerns things such as believing that a woman can't get pregnant if the male pulls out before ejaculating - but the person who believes that also knows that there is a risk that the woman could become pregnant. How do you eliminate risk? You don't do it at all.

Yes, I personally could make that decision very easily. Maybe for men it's more difficult (but still, since we're talking consensual sex that wouldn't make a different here) but maybe different women would struggle - but to give into that struggle is irresponsible when you know the consequences.
By the way, I'm not saying those people should be like nuns/monks and never touch each other - I'm saying they should not be having penetrative vaginal sex. There are plenty of other things they could do.

Because their rational should kick in and they should realize that the consequences of their 'outlet' is the creation of an innocent human being who will be born into poverty and as such they should search for another outlet. Some people find joyriding a great outlet but it doesn't mean that it's a rational thing to do. Some people find murdering a great outlet but that doesn't mean they should do it.

Well, I'd agree with that - they're definitely selfish.
Human beings are not often paragons of rationality. Maybe you are a very rational person, but I don't think most people are. I think most people are governed by needs, desires and feelings. And a lot of people find it hard to not do things they know they probably shouldn't, or that they know, logically, is bad for them - look at smokers, drug addicts, gamblers. People do all kinds of stupid things, but it's mostly to themselves. I imagine some of the people having children consider them as an extension of themselves, and don't fully imagine them as separate people with their own suffering, etc.
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chickencock
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They use them as anchor babies. Europeans are doormats.
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Juichiro
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(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
Not saying it should happen since I'm sure there's a lot more think about but my first thought to that is - if governments want to deport them then 1.why not deport the parents and put the babies into adoption systems so they can at least have a chance at life in a developed country? They'd have access to healthcare/education/jobs/a future and basically not have to pay for their parents irresponsibility. 2. More future tax payers if they're raised right and educated properly.
1. That's called child kidnapping.

Adoption is currently a bureaucratic nightmare. Increasing the numbers of children waiting to be adopted won't improve that nightmare. If anything, will mean that the taxpayer is paying for those children's living costs in some orphan organisation and will later pay for the prison cell costs where that child now a legal adult (18) has been sent due to their criminal activities. The taxpayer does not get any financial benefit from this.
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holmes221
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(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
Reading the news today I saw quite a few articles about the migrants in Greece


who have travelled from places such as Syria in order find a better life. A lot of them are heading to Greece and then on to wealthier European countries.

I'm sure we all have differing opinions about that matter in general but that's not what I'm focusing on here (personally, I feel that they are victims of circumstance and if I were them I'd probably do the same).

Anyway, I've noticed in quite a few pictures across a lot of articles that some of these migrants have young children - in some cases babies who are months old. Now, I'm a woman in my 20s and I live in a relatively wealthy country (UK) but I consciously choose not to have children because I know that at this point in my life I couldn't afford a child and it would be unfair on the child to live in relative poverty. What gets me is that these migrants are coming from poor, often violent, countries and they are having babies. I know some people might say ''they might not be able to afford contraception'' - but that's not good enough, they should abstain if they can't afford kids and have no contraception.

There maybe to instances where a woman has become pregnant against her will and that is a separate issue - we can't tell that from the pictures. But there will be instances where these children have been created with mutual consent and that's what I find incomprehensible.

Obviously, I'd want those children to be given aid and for their parents to be helped but their parents are causing problems that could be avoided and those children are likely to live in poverty for the rest of their lives. It seems crazy to want to put a child through such suffering.

Just to point out, I generally do not care what other people choose to do with their personal lives - I don't care what hair color they have, how they dress, who they want to be in a relationship with (so long as they're of age) or if they want to change their name to 'Mango Ferret Banana Queen' - IDGAF, but when people do things, intentionally or not, that negatively affect the lives of innocent people I find it incomprehensible. These adults are bringing innocent babies into a terrible set of circumstances and abject poverty - I just can't comprehend the rational of that or the level of irresponsibility that could accidentally lead to that.


Controversial topic, I know. I'm interested to hear people's opinions on this because it seems that you're not allowed to express this opinion without people thinking you are heartless. Personally, I think it's heartless to bring a child into poverty.
This is caused by lack of education and the have lots of children dogma of religion.
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Juichiro
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(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
I totally get your point -I was putting that out there for debate and playing devil's advocate BUT if it did happen and was done by the state it wouldn't be calling "child knapping", just as the US uses the terms "lethal injection"/"death penalty" rather than 'murder'.

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Whether the USA uses a term or other it's irrelevant. What matters is the meaning. And calling it "lethal injection" does not stop it from making it equivalent to murder. So for all purposes, we can say they are committing murder. The same would be with state-based child kidnapping. It's like the Greek's stories of Zeus kidnappings. They were not kidnappings per se, they were rapes (the kidnapping was a means to accomplish that).

Btw, gotta love a good controversial thread.
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Horsedobbin
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Well there are destitute children all over the world, whether they are the offspring of mgrants or not. If you care about desititute children then why not invite them all over here to use the NHS, GP's surgeries and get benefits? Organise planes to bring them over here, but then again, where are you going to put them all and who is going to pay for houses to be built for them to live in and who is going to pay for hospitals to put them into when they are sick, and what about paying for their food, clothing and schools? Don't you understand that we have A LIMITED NUMBER OF doctors' surgeries and when you need an urgent appointment because you have cancer or a blood disease, will you mind waiting for six months for an appointment or even not getting one at all?
So if you don't mind any of that, fine, invite them all over here, millions of them, to get benefits which tax payers here will have to pay for and don't forget the cost of TEACHING THEM ENGLISH.
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somethingbeautiful
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(Original post by Horsedobbin)
Well there are destitute children all over the world, whether they are the offspring of mgrants or not. If you care about desititute children then why not invite them all over here to use the NHS, GP's surgeries and get benefits? Organise planes to bring them over here, but then again, where are you going to put them all and who is going to pay for houses to be built for them to live in and who is going to pay for hospitals to put them into when they are sick, and what about paying for their food, clothing and schools? Don't you understand that we have A LIMITED NUMBER OF doctors' surgeries and when you need an urgent appointment because you have cancer or a blood disease, will you mind waiting for six months for an appointment or even not getting one at all?
So if you don't mind any of that, fine, invite them all over here, millions of them, to get benefits which tax payers here will have to pay for and don't forget the cost of TEACHING THEM ENGLISH.
Did you even read the first post? No one's arguing for that. The whole point was that the parents are totally irresponsible for causing this.

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