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Reply 180

suga_fly_77
I said that I don't think it can be justified; I didn't say that I would judge someone for having one. Obviously rape is a traumatic experience and I can understand why somebody would want to abort the child under those circumstances, but I still remain adamant that it's wrong nonetheless. Are you suggesting that a child conceived through rape is somehow inferior to those conceived in a relationship? Is it less worthy of life? No, it's not. I don't see why an innocent child should have to pay the ultimate price for the sick actions of his or her father.

I know that I haven't experienced such a situation myself, but I'd like to think that I'd have the courage to go through with the pregnancy, no matter what the circumstances were.


Unless you have been through rape you really wouldn't understand. And I say that in the kindest way possible.

Reply 181

FullLeatherJacket
No I don't.

People in comas already exist as people. A fetus does not exist as a person.


What characteristics do people in comas exhibit that people in wombs don't?

Reply 182

So, thread starter, are you male and catholic?

Reply 183

mc_hamster
Unless you have been through rape you really wouldn't understand. And I say that in the kindest way possible.


Don't patronise me. These are my views and they're very unlikely to change.
Greenmile
So, thread starter, are you male and catholic?

s/he is http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/member.php?u=79611 and http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/member.php?u=99157 back for round 3 after being banned for trolling/spamming/preaching about abortion in d&d....

Reply 185

mc_hamster
I asked you and you said no, don't go changing your story now.


Fathers don't have a say in abortion matters if their partners don't want them to, that is not a change in my story.

Reply 186

Greenmile
So, thread starter, are you male and catholic?


Yes.

Reply 187

suga_fly_77
I said that I don't think it can be justified; I didn't say that I would judge someone for having one. Obviously rape is a traumatic experience and I can understand why somebody would want to abort the child under those circumstances, but I still remain adamant that it's wrong nonetheless. Are you suggesting that a child conceived through rape is somehow inferior to those conceived in a relationship? Is it less worthy of life? No, it's not. I don't see why an innocent child should have to pay the ultimate price for the sick actions of his or her father.

I know that I haven't experienced such a situation myself, but I'd like to think that I'd have the courage to go through with the pregnancy, no matter what the circumstances were.

By saying it's never justified, you are in effect judging (in my opinion, anyway).

The child is not inferior, no. But it wouldn't have a good life.

And I really don't think you can make up your mind until you're in that situation. Great for you if you could put all the rape stuff out of your mind and have the child and not think of how it was conceived. You would be a very strong person. But many women can't do that.

Reply 188

Martin Daugherty
Fathers don't have a say in abortion matters if their partners don't want that to, that is not a change in my story.


I didn't say anything about that. You said you weren't ever in a situation where you had to decided, then you said Who is to say that I have not been in a position where I have had to make a decision about an unwanted pregnancy. That is a change in your story, stop twisting everyones words to suit you.

Reply 189

Martin Daugherty
What characteristics do people in comas exhibit that people in wombs don't?


You miss the point entirely.

They don't have to exhibit a difference, because they already have done. If they were to remain in that state, they would be withdrawn from life support. A fetus is not, and has never been a person, and therefore we owe it no obligation whatsoever.

Reply 190

suga_fly_77
Don't patronise me. These are my views and they're very unlikely to change.


I wasn't I was stating my opinion. It is true for many people, I know people with very strong views only to change them later when in said situation.

Reply 191

FullLeatherJacket
You miss the point entirely.

They don't have to exhibit a difference, because they already have done. If they were to remain in that state, they would be withdrawn from life support. A fetus is not, and has never been a person, and therefore we owe it no obligation whatsoever.


Even those that are born into comas?

Reply 192

Martin Daugherty
No, sperm has the capacity to become human, the unborn is a human.


Do you know what sperm are? They are packets of DNA. Half the necessary amount, to be exact. A sperm cell can never become human. It is physically and biologically impossible, because it doesn't have enough genes (and lots of other stuff, probably).


Martin Daugherty

Can you prove they are not people?


Proving a negative? Interesting one. Still, define "people" to begin with.


Acorn = sperm

small tree = foetus

That is a more accurate analogy.


No, it's very wrong. Plant an acorn in the correct place (soil), and it grows into a tree. Put a foetus into the correct place (a womb), and it develops into a human. The acorn is completely self contained. It has everything it needs, genetically speaking. A sperm cell can never develop into a foetus unless it fertilises an egg and gains the necessary amount of genes. This is simple stuff. Though you show flawed reasoning, I see why you are doing it because then it makes the difference between a foetus and a human simply one of size.

Reply 193

mc_hamster
I didn't say anything about that. You said you weren't ever in a situation where you had to decided, then you said Who is to say that I have not been in a position where I have had to make a decision about an unwanted pregnancy. That is a change in your story, stop twisting everyones words to suit you.


How can I decide if the choice isn't up to me?

Reply 194

supercat
By saying it's never justified, you are in effect judging (in my opinion, anyway).

The child is not inferior, no. But it wouldn't have a good life.

And I really don't think you can make up your mind until you're in that situation. Great for you if you could put all the rape stuff out of your mind and have the child and not think of how it was conceived. You would be a very strong person. But many women can't do that.


a) I don't think it's justified, but I wouldn't look down on somebody who chose to have one, as I DO understand the motivations behind it. Actually, a close friend of mine recently decided to have an abortion after becoming pregnant through a one night stand, and I offer her nothing but support. That isn't to say I agree with it, though.
b) You can't possibly assume it wouldn't have a good life, that's utterly narrow minded. Who's to say the child wouldn't be adopted by a loving family and grow up to lead a happy and fulfilling existence?

Reply 195

mc_hamster
I wasn't I was stating my opinion. It is true for many people, I know people with very strong views only to change them later when in said situation.


Exactly, hence my use of the phrase, "I'd LIKE to think." Who knows, if I was in that situation I may end up having an abortion. But I hope I wouldn't.

Reply 196

OK, so if Mr Daugherty is catholic, I assume then that he is married? Or if not that he is a virgin? Since catholics do not believe in sex before marriage, or contraception amongst other things.

As a male, it is easy to make a judgement about abortion. Because they will never be put in a position where they have to make that decision. Men have absolutely no idea what women go through before, during and after pregnancy and/or abortion. A man could not possibly imagine what it is like to be raped and end up pregnant. A man would never have to go through the decision of having an abortion because they need cancer treatment that would kill the baby. Or being told your unborn child has an illness where they will suffer continuously through their short life. It is easy to say have the baby and give it up for adoption. So easy, because YOU WILL NEVER BE IN THAT SITUATION.

I personally would not force my views of the matter on anyone. I have said before that I can see the arguments on both sides. But, Mr Thread Starter, you are an embodiment of hypocrasy. And you are wrong to assume that your opinion is right.

Reply 197

Martin Daugherty
How can I decide if the choice isn't up to me?


Twisting words again, please stop doing that. It's very annoying.

I asked Have you ever been in a position where you have had to make a decision about unwanted pregnancy?If the above quote by you was true then I would have expected you to say yes. You can't just change your mind because the question didn't suit you.

Reply 198

burntgorilla
Do you know what sperm are? They are packets of DNA. Half the necessary amount, to be exact. A sperm cell can never become human. It is physically and biologically impossible, because it doesn't have enough genes (and lots of other stuff, probably).


If you like, but an unborn is still a human.

burntgorilla
Proving a negative? Interesting one. Still, define "people" to begin with.


That is a response to a claim that suggested the unborn are not people, so I asked for that to be proven, if they cannot prove it, than they should not claim it.

burntgorilla
No, it's very wrong. Plant an acorn in the correct place (soil), and it grows into a tree. Put a foetus into the correct place (a womb), and it develops into a human. The acorn is completely self contained. It has everything it needs, genetically speaking. A sperm cell can never develop into a foetus unless it fertilises an egg and gains the necessary amount of genes. This is simple stuff. Though you show flawed reasoning, I see why you are doing it because then it makes the difference between a foetus and a human simply one of size.


Because it becomes fertilised, like what happens to that human egg when it meets the sperm.

Reply 199

suga_fly_77
Exactly, hence my use of the phrase, "I'd LIKE to think." Who knows, if I was in that situation I may end up having an abortion and taking the coward's way out. But I hope I wouldn't.


That's pretty offensive isn't it really? Are you saying everyone who has had a abortion because they had been raped and couldn't face having a baby are cowards?

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