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Abortion

Reply 760

14

mr_person

Its a pity that happens, because the pro-life argument is infinitely more complex than 'god says it so it must be true.' I'm not offended, its become a theme of this thread for pro-choice people to resort to insults.

Oh get off yer high horse! I wasn't insulting you! I was insulting the entire of TSR for not being able to have a decent debate about abortion...

And to be quite frank, neither the pro-life nor the pro-choice arguments on abortion are particularly complex. It's just a difference in opinion as to where you create the completely arbitrary threshold of 'personhood'. We say sometime in the womb, you say conception. Bang. End of debate, beginning of fight.

Reply 761

Melancholy

20

alasdair_R

No they don't. I've had plenty, and my feelings are just fine. As, I imagine, are those of the majority of the girls I've had them with...

Fallacy of composition. An experience for one is not necessarily an experience for everyone. One night stands can cause heart-ache. However an anti-abortionist concern would lie with the baby that could result. There is a huge moral question surrounding it.

It's no different really than a miner who uses his body as an object to pick coal out of the ground, or a machine operator who uses his body as an object to drill a hole in some sheet metal.

Those are the similarities, yes. However I have yet to witness a baby result from the miner's job. Again, what happens to the baby is a hige moral question. To which (sorry forgot her name - charmander logo person) correctly stated, we'd never agree on.

These people literally have nothing to sell but their labour and their bodies. Maybe prostitutes are the last of the proletariat? (Although of course I wouldn't expect a 'proud member of the Labour party' to care about them any more :wink:

)

One word, Margaret Thatcher :p:

Edit: Ok, two words.
Edit again: Ok, you're not a conservative either. However I could argue for days why Labour is the best political party and why Blair has been an outstanding leader (just ignore the Iraq War which even I admit was a huge failure). However this is not the place, and obviously I would be met with great hostility, judging by the anti-government and anti-Blairites wondering this great forum...

Reply 762

Melancholy

20

ForumFreak

The right to use someones body against their will for survival

They could get proper jobs, of course, but hey, it's 2007! :rolleyes:

Your neglecting the right of the baby which has been argued for many pages on this thread.

Reply 763

Alasdair

14

bronsonbear

so you believe the dicussion deserves contermpt becasue of what one or two individuals might eventually do to it? well thats bright...

No, it's because Abortion discussion inevitably end up like this...

Reply 764

Melancholy

20

Trigger

now why would i do that? So i can win internet arguments? I know what i beleive you know what you beleive so why does it have to be debated.

Agreed. After 40 pages or so, that has been made abundantly clear.

Reply 765

Melancholy

20

alasdair_R

And to be quite frank, neither the pro-life nor the pro-choice arguments on abortion are particularly complex. It's just a difference in opinion as to where you create the completely arbitrary threshold of 'personhood'. We say sometime in the womb, you say conception. Bang. End of debate, beginning of fight.

Yes, it is a matter of opinion. I've now come to realise (and others as well perhaps) that disputing the subject is futile.

Reply 766

mr_person

1

The_Myth Leader

Yes, it is a matter of opinion. I've now come to realise (and others as well perhaps) that disputing the subject is futile.

Indeed, but I do think its worth making the point that not every one who is pro-life is a religious nut. There is a very reasonable explanation to feel the way we do. Its not because we are misogynist or stupid.

Reply 767

Alasdair

14

The_Myth Leader

Fallacy of composition. An experience for one is not necessarily an experience for everyone. One night stands can cause heart-ache. However an anti-abortionist concern would lie with the baby that could result. There is a huge moral question surrounding it.

I would argue that one-night stands cause no more, if not less, heart-ache than relationships in general. And that was the reason you initially condemned them, not the abortions that result.

Those are the similarities, yes. However I have yet to witness a baby result from the miner's job. Again, what happens to the baby is a hige moral question. To which (sorry forgot her name - charmander logo person) correctly stated, we'd never agree on.

Without getting bogged down in semantics, it's important to remember that prostitution might result in a pregnancy - which then comes down to abortion.

And anyway, in both of the above, you're forgetting condoms...

One word, Margaret Thatcher :p:

Right, so Margaret Thatcher = we're too spineless to be proper socialists any more...good stuff.

To be honest, I shall be partying in the street when the bitch finally takes a one way trip to where she deserves...

Reply 768

Melancholy

20

mr_person

Indeed, but I do think its worth making the point that not every one who is pro-life is a religious nut. There is a very reasonable explanation to feel the way we do. Its not because we are misogynist or stupid.

Indeed. We should be able to justify our stance when we are called mysogenists, gays and stupid (to name a few insults [ok, being gay is not an insult before any pro-homosexuals start arguing] I have been labelled with in this thread, many of which I try to take in good humour). We should justify our views. 40 pages should be enough now. We're making no breakthroughs.

Reply 769

Melancholy

20

alasdair_R

I would argue that one-night stands cause no more, if not less, heart-ache than relationships in general. And that was the reason you initially condemned them, not the abortions that result.

I would argue that one-night stands cause more heartache than relationships, but there you go... Besides I find the idea somewhat seedy and dishonourable.

Just because I initially condemned it does not mean that was my prime concern, just that the conversation led me to state that first. My prime concern is the abortion dilema.

Without getting bogged down in semantics, it's important to remember that prostitution might result in a pregnancy - which then comes down to abortion.

The indefinite/incertain probability of pregnancy concludes there is a definite/certain chance of becoming pregnant which means that it should be avoided if one believes abortion is wrong.

And anyway, in both of the above, you're forgetting condoms...

No, someone from the pro-abortion side introduced the condom, saying there is still a chance of becoming pregnant.

Right, so Margaret Thatcher = we're too spineless to be proper socialists any more...good stuff.

I'll admit I prefer Old Labour to New Labour. Yet I still like Tony Blair despite the Iraq War and more authoritarian stance.

To be honest, I shall be partying in the street when the bitch finally takes a one way trip to where she deserves...

May I join that party? I'll come dressed as Trotsky rather than Tony Blair.

See you and good afternoon everybody. I'll stop hogging the limelight and let others share their views (108 posts on one thread!?)

Reply 770

mr_person

1

The_Myth Leader

The indefinite/incertain probability of pregnancy concludes there is a definite/certain chance of becoming pregnant which means that it should be avoided if one believes abortion is wrong.

Precisely, if I felt that murder was wrong I wouldn't go chucking knives out of my window even if I only 'might' kill someone.

Reply 771

Alasdair

14

The_Myth Leader

May I join that party? I'll come dressed as Trotsky rather than Tony Blair.

I do believe there's one planned on Trafalgar Square the Saturday after she dies...

Indeed there is, now that I've looked it up.

Reply 772

x_emme_x

11

I think that the limit should be sevrely reduced to about 10 weeks maximum. As that is roughly 2 cycles for most women and may then surely you should have realised your pregant.

Reply 773

Allthewayhome

10

I'm against abortion except in instances were the mothers life is endagered.

There's alot of people who can't have children but are willing to adopt so if you don't want the child or feel you won't be care for them, then I would urged them to give them up for adoption.

Reply 774

Melancholy

20

Reply 775

ForumFreak

9

Having a uterus and a sex life doesnt make a woman an automatic surrogate for the infertile.

Also why should a fetus have the right to use someones body against their will when a born person doesnt?

Reply 776

Allthewayhome

10

I believe abortion is wasted potential. Everyone must know and live up to the consequences of their actions and life is the consequence of unprotected sex.
At 10 weeks the foetus looks and funtions similar to a full term baby. To know where sentience begins is impossible and we will never know but what we can do is avoid the problem of conflicts of rights and plan to have a baby or have protected sex.

A baby outside of the womb has equal rights of that of an adult. A week before term, does that baby have the same rights? I would argue yes.What about 2, 3, 4 5, 6, 7 weeks? When does a right begin? At a single cell? Or the union of sperm and egg? Zygote attachment?

It's similiar to the pile of sand analogy. Does removing a single grain make it not a pile? What if we remove another then another until we have only one grain? When does a pile became not a pile? Is a single grain a pile?

It's hard to say and this fool is not educated enough to know.

Reply 777

ForumFreak

9

But you can be responsible (in this case using contraception) and still get pregnant. A 10 week fetus cant possibly survive outside the womb even with medical treatment. I have no idea when an unborn fetus becomes sentinent but we do know when they can survive in an incubator if born so I think that should be the point when they have rights.

Reply 778

Jennybean

13

mr_person

Its a pity that happens, because the pro-life argument is infinitely more complex than 'god says it so it must be true.' I'm not offended, its become a theme of this thread for pro-choice people to resort to insults.

Can I just point out that that is categorically not true. The majority of the pro-choice people offered perfectly eloquent arguments and at no point resorted to insults, and exactly the same can be said for the pro-lifers. Seeing as the thread starter, who was dogmatically pro-life, has now been banned permanently, it makes me laugh that everyone is saying how offensive the pro-choicers are and that we just say awful things because we don't want to debate the real issue. As I remember it, this debate about insults initially came up because you came in drunk, skimmed the thread and started accusing the pro-choicers of being offensive to the exclusion of offering any kind of valid argument. But I already pointed out to you once that the so-called insults came from both sides, in good humour, at the end of a long night, and were completely separate from the debate itself. They were not a substitute for arguing the case.

Reply 779

CheesyBeans

1

XenaGlamRocker

If you feel that strongly about it, don't have sex, it's very simple.
If I was petrified of being eaten by wild lions I wouldn't go and spend a night camping in the african wilderness.

Rape victims didn't ask to be raped. It's completely different.

The circumstances in which a person gets pregnant are different yes. You are basically saying though that because I consent to sex, get pregnant, am unable and have an abortion and so kill myself that I somehow deserve to die and it's my own silly fault for getting pregnant in the first case.

Anyway, I'm not wanting a debate about this I just wanted to know what you thought about that. Obviously someone who isnt raped isn't allowed an abortion and so it doesnt matter if she kills herself because of it.

Abortion

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