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Abortion

Reply 980

Tufts

17

Yes the foetus has no legal rights before 24 weeks.

Reply 981

Revenged

15

no, the foetus has no legal rights at all prior to birth... it has no such right to life under the law until it is born... and this is why the HFA act set no limit to abortions for 'severe disability' or if there is severe harm to the mother...

thus the conflict between mother and foetus example i've given... under the law there is nothing wrong with a mother being a drug addict or an alcoholic during her entire pregnancy... but i don't see it much differently as a mother forcing her 1 year old baby to take heroin or alcohol... i just don't think that this is right...

Reply 982

Tufts

17

Revenged

no, the foetus has no legal rights at all prior to birth... it has no such right to life under the law until it is born... and this is why the HFA act set no limit to abortions for 'severe disability' or if there is severe harm to the mother...

thus the conflict between mother and foetus example i've given... under the law there is nothing wrong with a mother being drug addict or alcoholic during her entire pregnancy... but i don't see it much differently as a mother forcing her 1 year old baby to take heroin or alcohol... i just don't think that's it's right...

Abortions after 24 weeks are very hard to obtain. Therefore the foetus has some rights.

When balancing the rights of the foetus and the women, I would choose the latter anyday and so would the law.

Reply 983

Revenged

15

Tufts

Abortions after 24 weeks are very hard to obtain. Therefore the foetus has some rights.

but it doesn't work like that... and this is my point... under the law a foetus have no right prior to birth and this is why there is no limit on abortions for certain circumstances such as 'severe disability'...

Tufts

When balancing the rights of the foetus and the women, I would choose the latter anyday and so would the law.

Yes, I totally agree... i'm not at all against abortion... but i think the law is far from clear... for example, under the law the foetus has no legal rights prior to birth... and in certain circumstances - like the conflict between a drug addict mother and foetus - i disagree with the law... i find it incredible that there is nothing legally wrong with giving birth to a baby that is addicted to heroin...

Reply 984

NDGAARONDI

16

Why is it when a foetus is aborted for trivial gounds such as webbed feet and cleft palate that **** all is done? I've yet to see a single prosecution for unlawful abortion.

Reply 985

Revenged

15

NDGAARONDI

Why is it when a foetus is aborted for trivial gounds such as webbed feet and cleft palate that **** all is done? I've yet to see a single prosecution for unlawful abortion.

I'd just like to point out that here you are talking about abortion after 24 weeks, which is less than 0.1% of all abortions (which is approx 200 abortions a year)... and only a small fraction of these abortion are due to 'severe handicap' because most of them are to save the mother's life or to prevent significant harm to the mother... so in real life you are talking about a very very small fraction of all the abortions in the uk...

but cases have turned up in court... for example, in the news there was a case of foetus with a cleft palate that was aborted at 26 weeks... and the reason that nothing was done is because the doctors followed the law... as the law stands after 24 weeks doctors have a legal defence to abortion if they 'in good faith' decided that there is a severe disability... and since the doctors acted 'in good faith' and decided that it was a severe disability then they were following the law in this case and so were not prosecuted...

you have to understand that in real life though doctors are very reluctant to allow any abortion after 24 weeks for any sort of disability... and after such cases have come to court it has really put off doctors signing abortion for any sort of disabilities after 24 weeks... they have to use their judgement about what is classified as a severe disability and these cases are so rare that doctors often don't know what to do and so in real life the vast majority will have nothing to do with it... if there is even a small chance that they may be taken to court and prosecuted then there is only an extremely small minority that will even consider signing an abortion form...

Reply 986

Tufts

17

Revenged

this is why there is no limit on abortions for certain circumstances such as 'severe disability'...

But apart from severe disability and possible death to the mother, abortion is illegal after 24 weeks. Therefore there *are* limits.

Reply 987

yawn

17

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights - Resolution 217A, adopted 10th December, 1948

Article 3.

"Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person."

The right to life includes (in this declaration) the unborn.

Reply 988

Tufts

17

yawn

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights - Resolution 217A, adopted 10th December, 1948

Article 3.

"Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person."

The right to life includes (in this declaration) the unborn.

Not true actually. States are granted a Margin of Appreciation to interpret that clause how they deem satisfactory.

Reply 989

King Hippo

9

yawn

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights - Resolution 217A, adopted 10th December, 1948

Article 3.

"Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person."

The right to life includes (in this declaration) the unborn.

But as Tufts says, states are allowed to interpret that definition. In Canada, for example, "the State party does not recognise unborn children as persons before the law, because section 223(1) of the Criminal Code of Canada limits the definition of human beings to post-birth children."
(Queenan Vs Canada, 2005)

And of course there's Roe v. Wade, which would never have come to that conclusion had the article you quoted been followed to the letter, including the "pre or post birth" clause.

Reply 990

freespeech

Tufts

Not true actually. States are granted a Margin of Appreciation to interpret that clause how they deem satisfactory.

Tell that to Brussels.

Reply 991

Tufts

17

King Hippo

But as Tufts says, states are allowed to interpret that definition. In Canada, for example, "the State party does not recognise unborn children as persons before the law, because section 223(1) of the Criminal Code of Canada limits the definition of human beings to post-birth children."
(Queenan Vs Canada, 2005)

And of course there's Roe v. Wade, which would never have come to that conclusion had the article you quoted been followed to the letter, including the "pre or post birth" clause.

freespeech

Tell that to Brussels.

It was them whom came up with the margin of appreciation :laugh:

Reply 992

Seoid

I have a question... it might be difficult to answer but I was just wondering from a legal point of view...

If a woman was pregnant and someone attacked her and cut out the baby, killing the baby but not the mother, would this crime be considered murder or just GBH to the mother? Would the unborn baby have any status in this situation?

Reply 993

King Hippo

9

Interesting question, that.

I'd assume that if the fetus (not baby, mind) was more than 24 weeks old then it would be murder.

But to be honest, if someone's digging about in there and cutting out an embryo that's less than 24 weeks old, I'm pretty sure the mother's likely to die anyway.

Reply 994

Seoid

Well, say if the mother was stabbed and this caused the baby to die, and the baby was under 24 weeks? Anyone?

Reply 995

TheConfuddledOne

10

yawn

An unborn child is a human life. :frown:

I recommend you visit Debate & Discussion for challenging and mature debates on abortion. :smile:

Many abortions happen way before it is what is actually an unborn child, instead just being a collection of cells. Yes, it has to the potential to be human life, but isn't at that time.

I may indeed visit them.

Reply 996

Seoid

I really am interested in what people have to say to my question and I don't want it to get buried so I'll pose it again:

If a pregnant woman gets stabbed and the baby dies but the mother doesn't, is that murder?

I'd like personal and legal views.

Reply 997

AppleCrumble

Seoid

I really am interested in what people have to say to my question and I don't want it to get buried so I'll pose it again:

If a pregnant woman gets stabbed and the baby dies but the mother doesn't, is that murder?

I'd like personal and legal views.

No, for the same reason abortion isn't murder, it isn't a person, therefore cannot be murdered in the sense that you or i can.

I'm sure the foetus doesn't care, you can't miss what you've never had.

Reply 998

Seoid

So say a jealous husband kills his wife's child by another man - he won't and shouldn't be held accountable for ending that life?

And what do you say to the mother who has lost her child - it was just a ball of cells?

Reply 999

King Hippo

9

He would be jailed for attacking her with a knife, at least. That's attempted murder or some form of attempted manslaughter, surely?

Abortion

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