Abortion

woah woah woah woah.
please.....is there any need for quite that many expletives?

No it's not impossible. Personally I think it's "wrong" that some farmers bash the smallest lamb out of a set of triplets on the head to kill it the second it's born. But I don't think they are terrible people for partaking in that practice and I would certainly never seek to prevent all farmers from doing this, because it's only my opinion. There's a completely unrelated example for you so that no parallels can be drawn between it and abortion, although I would certainly argue it is far more explicitly cruel. The problem with what you've just said is that the pro-lifers are not just judging, they think abortion should be made illegal. So they are not only expressing their judgement, which after all is just subjective opinion, they are seeking to impose it upon everybody, even those who don't agree. Alasdair said it better than me, though I don't agree that religion is necessarily equated with being a total idiot! Covering my back there lol...

Edit: Unrelated to the debate, I would like to apologise for the ridiculous typos I keep making this evening. Did a twelve hour shift today so am very tired! Will keep editing them out when I spot them retrospectively. Sorry guys.

This is simply untrue. You've provided no evidence.

You've provided no evidence.
Correcting spelling mistakes is not really an argument.

If you want to learn more pro-life stances then read the numerous links I've posted;

maybe they can answer some of your questions. I thought (and still think) I had. But for now, I'm off.

please...was there any need for that comment?
You're not a mod, there's a swear filter and when someone is being such a nobcheese I feel it's perfectly justified. Now **** off you ****.

Look, if you have seriously got to the point where this is the only thing you have left to discuss with me, leave the thread, it looks ridiculous. I am glad that Supercat at least has enough brain cells to rub together that she could interpret my posts correctly. I never said I judged people who were virgins at 18/19/68, nor the people who are virgins and happy to stay that way, so long as they don't try and impose their views on everyone else. Your comment that your friends were all virgins at 18 "and proud of it" quite clearly implies you think you have one up morally (or whatever) on anyone who wasn't. Well I am telling you that just because you denied yourself one of life's greatest pleasures for as long as you could, does not make you a better individual than someone who didn't. That is my opinion on people who seriously think that one's sexual behaviour makes a difference to their value as a person (and I mean consensual, legal forms of sex before any other desperate pro-lifers start yelling "so you're all for incest then"). If you want to deny that that is what you were implying with your "virgins and proud of it" comment, fine. If you really think you've fooled me with your backtrack, that's cool. I just think the rest of your supercilious comments about people who have sex outside of relationships transparently show your views on those who start early and continue to enjoy sex in whatever situation they choose, and I don't like them. It's a very arrogant stance.

Firstly there is a great difference between seeing a person's action as wrong and condemning somebody as a bad person, I made no statement relating to the latter.

And actually I'm not entirely convinced that all pro-lifers want abortion to be made illegal, certainly I don't. I think most pro-lifers are realistic enough to realise that they cannot, and indeed I'm relatively sure most would not wish to, impose their views about abortion on others. It seems to me that the entire point of the pro-life campaign, exactly the same as that of the pro-choice campaign, is to encourage people to think before making a decision, not to press views upon people.

With regards to the issue of the illegality of abortion, it doesn't necessarily follow that thinking something is immoral means one must wish for it to be illegal. If you believe, as I do, that you cannot convince people who are dead set on having an abortion not to so, then there is no point in making it illegal, as all that succeeds is doing is driving abortions underground, leading to health risks that appeal to nobody. Not even any pro-life advocate would want the lives of people having abortions to be placed in unnecessary danger.

Jenny you are the one who made fun of the fact that my friends and I were proud to be virgins, so don't get on your high horse about being arrogant. I have never called you names, whereas you have called me "silly" and "hilarious" and have been rude at every opportunity. I never said I looked down on anyone who had sex at a young age, you were the one who said that. I didn't deny myself sex as long as I could, I waited till I had met a person that I could see myself having children with and whom I loved before I had sex and I am very very glad I did that. I never said I was better than anybody, I certainly don't think I'm any better than you Jenny, and I don't see the world like that.

Hmm...I'm not convinced. You mentioned judging. If you (generic) are not judging in a negative way, what exactly are you doing?

Well to be honest that sounds more sensible than the average pro-lifer to me....can I ask then, how many of the pro-lifers posting here would seek to illegalise abortion if they thought it was a realistic goal? And also, with the bolded sentiment, you are again pandering to this unfounded idea that people take some kind of perverse pleasure in terminating pregnancies, they do it without proper thought beforehand, that it goes on "willy-nilly" (beautifully put by Nat there lol) and that people just have abortions as an extra form of contraception. Why do all the pro-lifers talk as if people who support abortion or have abortions have no sympathy for the emotions involved? We KNOW it's a traumatic experience - I know that first hand. But it all comes back down to the fact that I don't let my emotions trump my ability to think logically when making a decision about where I stand on an issue.

Firstly there is a great difference between seeing a person's action as wrong and condemning somebody as a bad person, I made no statement relating to the latter.

And actually I'm not entirely convinced that all pro-lifers want abortion to be made illegal, certainly I don't. I think most pro-lifers are realistic enough to realise that they cannot, and indeed I'm relatively sure most would not wish to, impose their views about abortion on others. It seems to me that the entire point of the pro-life campaign, exactly the same as that of the pro-choice campaign, is to encourage people to think before making a decision, not to press views upon people.

With regards to the issue of the illegality of abortion, it doesn't necessarily follow that thinking something is immoral means one must wish for it to be illegal. If you believe, as I do, that you cannot convince people who are dead set on having an abortion not to so, then there is no point in making it illegal, as all that succeeds is doing is driving abortions underground, leading to health risks that appeal to nobody. Not even any pro-life advocate would want the lives of people having abortions to be placed in unnecessary danger.

I don't think I made any statement about why abortions are undertaken, or the flippancy with which that decision is made, I simply said that the goal of pro-life and pro-choice activists alike is to make people think about the choice of whether or not to have an abortion, and to understand the underlying ethical issues.

Quite right Jonesy, I've said at least three times that I don't wish for abortion to be made illegal. In fact I'd rather it was available in Ireland because there have been cases where raped women have been forced to keep their babies and I think that's just wrong. What I want is greater control on it, so that people don't just see it as a lifestyle choice or as a way to get rid of an inconvenient baby so that they can have more money.

No you didn't but lots of people have and you'll excuse me for lumping you in with everyone else, I'm pretty tired. I can see that you are arguing a slightly different point here. Ok let me think about this a bit and I'll get back to you, cos I'm really not sure I agree that pro-lifers are only seeking to make sure people understand every angle before they make their decision...I'm sure some are, and I'm pretty sure you fall into that category. But not all by any means. Like I said, I'll post again when I've got something more interesting to say in a more eloquent manner.

Bybye.

Jennybean if it's not too much trouble i would like to ask you a question. You seem to be very much for Political correctness and insist that people are careful not to offend others. You appear to believe, that people should be restricted in what they are allowed to say. However, you are appalled if their actions are restricted on moral grounds. It seems strange to believe that it's ok to end a life, but outrageous to make a sexual innuendo..hmm. Why is this? Have i misinterpreted your stance perhaps, as your views seem so conflicting.

Firstly, you tool, I was ****ing joking. How dense are you?
Secondly, hitler did ban abortion. I'm studying Nazi domestic policies in AS History and i've seen it stated in numerous paper sources(see Edexcel AS History Unit 3 guide if you want). That page you linked to is just ****ing wanky **** written by a mental: 'Hitler was a leftist'. Yeah, ok then.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/Women_Nazi_Germany.htm

Who's proven themselves to be quite a fool now?