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Reply 1780

123450
Nobody gets an abortion 'as a form of contraception' - regardless of what The Sun or Daily Mail say.

If you are prepared to say that the abortion can go ahead in cases of rape or where childbirth may harm the mother or baby, then this is completely selfish on your part if you then say that abortions should not be allowed in any other case. Whether you are for or against abortion, you should not have differing views; in your eyes either that life is too sacred to give up, or it is not. If the baby is the result of a rape, you're saying that in your eyes, the potential child is not as sacred as another baby?

For anyone skim reading - I am pro-abortion.



well everyone has different views dont they?i never once said abortion is a form of contraception...contraception means preventing conception and abortion is killing that which is already conceived.

of course i can have differing views, its called having an open mind, what i was basically saying is that abortion is wrong if its just a result of a stupid couple who cant be bothered to be careful and that they shouldn't be allowed to kill a baby just because they cant be bothered with it, but at the same time if the couple cant afford to give the baby an acceptable standard of life they shouldnt have it, that would be punishing a child for it's parents mistakes Rather than an abortion i'd say they should give it up for adoption or give the child a chance to have a good life.

and its not selfish to abort if it may harm the baby, would you thank your mother for keeping you if pre-natal scans showed a life ruining disease?
and if the birth would have killed my mother i'd much rather she abort and give it another go, a child shouldnt grow up without a mother if it is preventable.

bascally im half and half, you cant tell me i'm either one or the other, im also agnostic, are you going to tell me im wrong there too?

Reply 1781

123450
Nobody gets an abortion 'as a form of contraception' - regardless of what The Sun or Daily Mail say.

Well actually, yes, they do. You get women coming back for three or more, using it for exactly that reason. How am I aware of this? Not the Sun or Daily Fail, but by talking to doctors who've done them and seen similar faces.

Reply 1782

Why do people keep calling an embryo/a foetus a baby? They're not the same thing people and the terms shouldn't be used interchangably. It's misleading.

Reply 1783

Kinkerz
Well actually, yes, they do. You get women coming back for three or more, using it for exactly that reason. How am I aware of this? Not the Sun or Daily Fail, but by talking to doctors who've done them and seen similar faces.


Then why don't they use other, far easier forms of contraception?

Reply 1784

123450
Then why don't they use other, far easier forms of contraception?

That's not a question for me to answer, and I'm sure your own suggestions would be as good as mine.

Laziness, the 'I'll sort it out tomorrow' attitude, 'my boyfriend doesn't like condoms', etc., etc.

Reply 1785

Kash:)
But it's they way they just casually say without a care in the world and what sounds like not much thought. It's a life we're talking about.

It's a clump of cells - and the way someone speaks about something doesn't necessarily have any relation to how much thought they've given to it. In fact, if someone is talking about a termination they've had, speaking about it in a detached way may be a coping strategy. Or maybe they just see it for what it is: a cluster of cells. You may see it as 'a life', and that's fine, but I don't see it as being more of a life form than any other small collection of cells (I don't put it on par with a fully developed human).

Care-Free
Rather than an abortion i'd say they should give it up for adoption or give the child a chance to have a good life.


This is a great idea. It's also very naive. Not all children who are put up for adoption actually get lucky enough to be adopted and I think about a quarter of all adoptions in the UK fail. Not to mention that pregnancy and birth carry an inherent risk for the mother which can be avoided if a termination is sought early enough.

Also, the argument for abortion being allowed in the case of rape - how would you prove rape? There are already people who make false rape accusations. Faced with unwanted pregnancies this would possibly increase substantially in desperate attempts to obtain an abortion.

Reply 1786

To all those that oppose abortion completely: not every woman who has an abortion because she doesn't want a child has neglected to use contraception. It can fail. Even using two methods of contraception (ie if the woman was on the pill and the man wore condoms) can't completely 100% guarantee protection against pregnancy. What then? The couple did everything within their power (bar abstaining) to prevent it. Is the woman still irresponsible? Should abortion still not be an option for her?

Reply 1787

I'm totally pro-choice. Up until the cut-off point for when abortions can be conducted, it is still a foetus, IMO - as in, not a baby yet. I don't agree with it being used as a form of contraception - however, I doubt it is used as a form of contraception, because everyone who talks in newspapers/magazines about having an abortion say it is the worst thing they have ever gone through.
Contraception can fail, you could conceive when raped, you might find out that the baby will have a serious disability or condition that means its life expectancy is no more than a few hours, or that its quality of life will be no more than an existence, not a life.
Do all of you who are pro-life suggest that a family go through any of this, because you disagree with abortion? Should it be allowed to put a family through this, making them wait to have a baby that will, and I'm sorry because I know how harsh this sounds, only live for a few days?
However, on the other side of this, there are mothers - such as mine - who are eternally grateful for the few days they got to spend with their babies when they were ill, and say in hindsight that not aborting the baby was a good thing. However, it is up to the individual - cases differ, circumstances differ, people differ. No-one has the right to tell anyone else what to do with their own body.

Reply 1788

snowyowl
To all those that oppose abortion completely: not every woman who has an abortion because she doesn't want a child has neglected to use contraception. It can fail. Even using two methods of contraception (ie if the woman was on the pill and the man wore condoms) can't completely 100% guarantee protection against pregnancy. What then? The couple did everything within their power (bar abstaining) to prevent it. Is the woman still irresponsible? Should abortion still not be an option for her?


Of course it shouldn't. When you have sex you accept the risk of pregnancy. Most know that contraception is not always effective, but still have sex. When you have sex, you take the responsibility, and if you really don't want a child you don't have sex.

Reply 1789

Well at least you're rational and realistic about things then.

Reply 1790

There's also a risk with driving. You could go on a motorway and be hit by another driver - you could die.
Would you say that if you don't want the risk of dying, you shouldn't drive?

Reply 1791

Louiise.
I do not agree with abortion.
A woman who doesn't want to have her own child should've thought about that before doing what she did. And even more: nowadays we've tons of protections in order to prevent these situations. So abortion is a wrong decision, because we're "playing" with our own child's life. It will have consequences for life.
And even if the baby has problems, who are we to decide for them? I'm sure if you ask them, when they're adults, if they want to die, they'll say "No, I don't".
However, if the life of the mother is at stake, this decision should be considered. But ONLY in that case.


yes but what if they child is born with problems so severe that they are without the capacity to think clearly for themselves. is it really fair to bring a child into the world knowing that it will suffer for as long as it lives... and yes you could argue that there are many disabled peopple in the world who cope fine and even enjoy their lives but i'm sure a lot of them wished they were physically/mentally "able" and surely if we knew beforehand that a child was going to be born with life altering problems it is just to have an abortion?

Reply 1792

Life is full of risks, so should we all simply stay indoors with the doors and windows locked and wrap ourselves in bubble wrap? Of course not. Most rational people accept that sex is also for pleasure and isn't simply a means to producing a child. This is why we have contraception in the first place. If said contraception fails (note I mentioned using two methods, so being as safe and protected as possible) I don't see how it can be anyone's fault if the woman does fall pregnant. Both the woman and her partner have accepted they don't want children and done everything they can to prevent that. If it fails, I see nothing wrong with abortion being used as a last resort.

As this person says:

123450

There's also a risk with driving. You could go on a motorway and be hit by another driver - you could die.
Would you say that if you don't want the risk of dying, you shouldn't drive?

Reply 1793

123450
There's also a risk with driving. You could go on a motorway and be hit by another driver - you could die.
Would you say that if you don't want the risk of dying, you shouldn't drive?


Yes. I thought it would be pretty obvious that if you don't want to die on a motorway you don't drive on one. You accept that when you do drive on one then you may crash and die.

Reply 1794

So say someone wants to travel somewhere by car [have sex]. That person takes all reasonable precautions to avoid getting into a crash where they may get hurt [pregnant] such as using the safety restraints and driving with due care and attention [correct use of contraceptives]. Bad stuff can happen to good people of course, and there's an inherent risk in everything. They find themselves in a crash [pregnant] and require immediate medical attention [termination].. but according to your logic they should not be entitled to treatment because they knowingly took the risk.

Reply 1795

el pollo diablo
So say someone wants to travel somewhere by car [have sex]. That person takes all reasonable precautions to avoid getting into a crash where they may get hurt [pregnant] such as using the safety restraints and driving with due care and attention [correct use of contraceptives]. Bad stuff can happen to good people of course, and there's an inherent risk in everything. They find themselves in a crash [pregnant] and require immediate medical attention [termination].. but according to your logic they should not be entitled to treatment because they knowingly took the risk.


See this is where the analogies differ - of course the car crash victim should get medical treatment, but the pregnant woman gets treatment that involves terminating a baby/foetus/whatever.

Reply 1796

What's that got to do with anything? Why should the car crash victim get medical treatment while the female who got pregnant (who also took all reasonable precaution) just has to forget her own life in favour of a mass of rapidly multiplying cells in her body? Would we say the same to a cancer patient (who has the very similar dilemma of having a group of rapidly multiplying cells within their body)?
Or maybe it's better to compare with someone who gets infected with a parasite then, since both involve removing a parasitic being from inside an individual. Apart from the fact that the foetus has the potential to become a human being several months down the road, they both behave in a similar way ('theft' of nutrients, growth, inhabiting the body of another being - potentially at a cost to the host's well-being).

Reply 1797

Lol, abortion.

The other analogy involves a violin, iirc.

There are a few good articles. Don Marquis makes the argument against abortion quite convincingly. People like Judith Jarvis Thompson make a good case in favour of abortion. I don't know if they're online.

Reply 1798

el pollo diablo
What's that got to do with anything? Why should the car crash victim get medical treatment while the female who got pregnant (who also took all reasonable precaution) just has to forget her own life in favour of a mass of rapidly multiplying cells in her body? Would we say the same to a cancer patient (who has the very similar dilemma of having a group of rapidly multiplying cells within their body)?
Or maybe it's better to compare with someone who gets infected with a parasite then, since both involve removing a parasitic being from inside an individual. Apart from the fact that the foetus has the potential to become a human being several months down the road, they both behave in a similar way ('theft' of nutrients, growth, inhabiting the body of another being - potentially at a cost to the host's well-being).


Why would I leave that out? That's like saying, "Should criminals be sent to prison, but forget the fact that they committed a crime." The pregnant woman's treatment comes at the expense of another life.

Reply 1799

I don't see what you're getting at here - you're going to have to elaborate further on this. Are you comparing a pregnant woman who wants to terminate her pregnancy with a criminal, suggesting that both should be punished for their 'crimes' (the criminal for an actual crime with a prison sentence, the woman for the crime of getting pregnant by forcing her to continue with the pregnancy and birth an unwanted human)?

No, it comes at the expense of a potential life. You're putting the potential life ahead of the life of the actual human life that currently exists (the pregnant woman). In an individual infected with a parasite though there are two actual lives - the host and the parasite. So should a host individual be denied treatment because it would 'come at the expense of another life'?

I don't understand why in the situation of pregnancy there is so much value placed on the life of the foetus (no matter what the situation it would seem) but so little value placed on the woman in question.
(edited 4 years ago)

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