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Degenerate Western Society

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Reply 20

Plantagenet Crown

Was expecting the OP to be a Muslim spouting the common "it's all the immoral West's fault" cliché.

Reply 21

Another

-> Complains about people not thinking about their future
-> Complains about people spending too much time on their career

Smh, what do you want us to do?

Reply 22

Another

Original post by Johann von Gauss

*humanity's

Does it make sense now?

People who dedicate their time and effort into their careers usually do it for the greater good of society. What personal gratification does a surgeon get after 25+ years of gruelling study and minimal family time? Bragging rights?

Unless you can explain in very simple terms what you want people to do, in order to create your perfect society

Reply 23

phoenixsilver

Original post by Johann von Gauss

Having a computer isn't greedy - it is useful, its not just a status symbol

And your views are the reason global warming is such an issue - we believe our standard of living is more important than future generations' standards of living...

If you are a climate change protestor that's one thing, however basically you are saying it is immoral to have any possessions that give you enjoyment.

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Reply 24

Tater

Original post by Johann von Gauss

Some possessions that give you enjoyment are necessary for you to be productive, and I accept that. But there is a limit - imagine if everyone just took drugs continually, and were blissfully unaware of everything around them. They'd be happy, but would you be call that a true existence?

You can't debate with cultural marxists, they've been brought up in a morally and spiritually dead society where there is nothing to live for except money. They use drugs and alcohol so much to sedate and distract themselves from it.

Reply 25

Xotol

Original post by Johann von Gauss

So life is pointless. Why not kill yourself? Because that's even more pointless somehow. And there is a lot you would miss out on doing. Now, that's the view you take on your own life, and the view I take on humanity's existence.

Life is inherently pointless, but that allows us to add extrinsic value to our lives. Humans aren't born with the same characteristics, personality, likes/dislikes, so we should be free to exercise our liberty to do the things that make us happy, and that is different for everyone. Provided we do not infringe on the liberty of others, there is nothing wrong with someone liking different things to you, or holding diferent dreams or ambitions. That is the point of liberal Western society. Once you start dictating what things should make people happy, you are implicitly embracing fascist ideology about a homogenised society with a common goal and no individual identity.

Reply 26

troubadour.

Original post by Johann von Gauss

Why should anybody imagine that? You're arguing from hypothetical scenarios. The 'what if' school of argument. :tongue:

The fact is that not everybody takes drugs continually so nothing needs to be done about it because it's not a problem. Don't just invent a problem to push your morality down everybody else's throats.

And yes I would call it a true existence. Certainly as 'true' as any other. The fact that you don't approve of them doesn't mean those people don't exist.

Reply 27

Tater

Original post by Xotol

Life is inherently pointless,

No it isn't, its just your opinion

Reply 28

Xotol

Original post by Tater

No it isn't, its just your opinion

What is the inherent purpose of life, and how can you demonstrate this beyond any doubt?

Reply 29

Tater

Original post by Xotol

What is the inherent purpose of life, and how can you demonstrate this beyond any doubt?

I'm not making any claims to what it is, the burden of proof is on you

Reply 30

Xotol

Original post by Johann von Gauss

Western society itself seems to dictate that money, food, luxuries should make you feel happy.

Communist more than fascist, anyway

Original post by Johann von Gauss

Life exists. Death is pointless. Therefore life has some point to it, if only to avoid death. QED

Completely different argument as to whether there was a point to life beginning or not

What does this have to do with society gearing its efforts into creating some kind of god race in the future that worships how great we were?

Original post by Tater

I'm not making any claims to what it is, the burden of proof is on you

Yeah so you don't actually have an idea how to show life has an inherent purpose :laugh:

As we are entering a field of opinions and speculation, it only makes sense that each of us should establish our own values in life, in the absence of a commonly identified intrinsic purpose.

Reply 31

Viva Emptiness

Original post by Xotol

Except you are trying to dictate what people should be using their time and money for, instead of establishing a market that can offer a wide range of goods and services for people to choose.

You don't know what communism means.

What does this have to do with society gearing its efforts into creating some kind of god race in the future that worships how great we were?

Yeah so you don't actually have an idea how to show life has an inherent purpose :laugh:

As we are entering a field of opinions and speculation, it only makes sense that each of us should establish our own values in life, in the absence of a commonly identified intrinsic purpose.

To echo earlier sentiments - you're wasting your time, friend.

Reply 32

frida.

Agreed. Few of us are actually committed to creating a better world for the future of humankind. However we can't assume everyone has the means or ability to, and we don't know peoples circumstances. I believe that individually we should do things that help the planet, other people, animals (just my opinion) etc. Each to their own, but yes there should be a larger emphasis on the state of the Earth and its inhabitants, and how we can treat this planet with more respect and make it a far nicer one for the generations to come, rather than being bombarded constantly with the latest celebrity fragrance or expensive cars and the like. Sadly though that's the society we live in and it is hard to motivate some of my generation of teens at least, to be more involved with humanitarian, environmentalist, and other 'good causes'. They are far more interested in Netflix and getting high (as am i, but in moderation people!). It starts with better education i suppose, more opportunities for youth to get off their backsides and give back to their communities, but more importantly, the planet. I like what you said about life having a point, if only to avoid death. Life may or may not have a solid purpose or point, but it only lasts for so long, and i definitely agree that what we do with it should be to benefit others and make a mark on this world -it's a far better legacy to have than having spent your youth or most of your life doing next to nothing!

Reply 33

Xotol

Original post by Johann von Gauss

Who said anything about our descendants worshipping us?

And no, just because we don't know the purpose of life doesn't mean we should be content to let people throw their lives away

You literally said this:

Humankind has amassed much knowledge in our short existence - our descendants would look upon us as gods with our technology. Isn't it exciting to think how happy your descendants will be, to speculate how god-like they will appear to us?

My bad, they would only 'look' upon us as gods, not actually worship us. But nitpicking what I say doesn't detract from the absurdity (and hilarity) of your statements. :laugh:

Original post by Viva Emptiness

To echo earlier sentiments - you're wasting your time, friend.

Yep, I think it's time to abandon thread. :colonhash:

Reply 34

Viva Emptiness

Original post by Xotol

Yep, I think it's time to abandon thread. :colonhash:

Try something more meaningful, like starting a family.

Reply 35

SHallowvale

Original post by Johann von Gauss

To me, it seems that most modern people care only about being happy right now, and don't give a damn about future generations, at least up until their mid thirties. They are selfish and short sighted, sparing no thought for the future of mankind.

Why are people so obsessed with wasting their time getting drunk, watching TV, and playing video games? Why not do something with their lives?

Why do people embrace stagnation of our industries and the ageing of our infrastructure?

Why do men dislike the though of getting married? So they can have sex with more people?

Why are women so obsessed with expensive clothes?

Why do they care so much about their careers and income? So they can get bigger cars?

Convince me that modern Western society, with TV shows like 'Keeping up with the Kardashians', is not degenerate

You've listed several things which you think people shouldn't be doing (getting drunk, spending money on bigger cars, etc) but you've provided no explanation as to what you think would benefit ''the future of mankind'' and ''future generations''.

In what way(s) do you think these people should live their life that would benefit future generations? What should they be doing that they are not currently doing, and why?

Reply 36

Mick.w

Original post by Johann von Gauss

Well. There's very little understanding between us. there is no shared societal or cultural norm for boys and girls. so boys and girls have their own very personalized identity. this reduces compatibility.

Culturally we are very mixed too and there's a lot of controversy on "getting things right" but this also seems to be impossible when you listen to the complaints.

our parents have done little to nothing collectively as a society to prepare us for the world or the world for us.

the world is getting more polluted and unhealthy to live in.
the food is unhealthy and to eat healthy requires money and time.
our prospects are worse than our parents. we are less likely to succeed in a field we dislike yet alone a field we like. getting work is

hard and the third world is boiling over with much more motivated and desperate people that are willing to fight for jobs we we're promised would be below our education and station. our efforts in grades and school have amounted to little more than debt and a bit of fun at freshers.

we are paying off centuries of debt.

opportunities to buy a flat yet alone a home are slim. most of us will rent until death.

most of us have been made to feel like criminals over our child hood if we dared venture outside or would likely face violence from other kids or adults in some parts of the country. fewer parks and playgrounds built and insecure funding for youth programs have meant that we have a generation that is not motivated to play out doors. the government has actively encouraged parents to keep children inside. this of course has lots of bad health.

as a result we're all gonna die younger than our parents.

things are looking steadily worse as time goes on.

the last thing we have to look forward to is a quint and happy humble family.

but the chance of getting that is poor too. girls are the central basis for a family. they are out to get their own career and are just as sexually promiscuous and unloyal as the boys. the chances of a happy nuclear family coming from this lot are nill. marriage means little more than an elevated form of dating for the sake of ostentatious events and validity.

anyway male fertility is at an all time low and sinking. soon we won't be able to have kids anyway even if we tried.

so is it any wander we stay inside and hide in our video games? or try to make our crappy lives a sort of drunken adventure while we're young?

i mean what else is there for us?

Reply 37

Rakas21

I'm not sure that i'd call all those degenerate however i do agree that there has been a general moral and cultural degeneration in recent decades.

Reply 38

xylas

Mick.w and Johann von Gauss both make interesting points. Although I would suggest that reality lies somewhere more on the conservative side than the hyperbolic end of the spectrum they argue. Still from a single point of view the conclusions they make are not unfeasible.

An alternative point of view which I have adopted, similar to previous posters on this thread, is one of capitalist libertarianism which I see as one of the major benefits of modern society. I would argue that the problems highlighted cease to exist - for example, we should not look for a simple definition of what humanity's goal is in life but everything obtains its value from human perception. You don't like something, don't pursue it. No one likes something, it loses its value to the point of worthlessness and anyone of us can become investors in new 'cheap stock' and change it.

Therefore, humanity is driven from the wants and needs of the population not from some divine principle. An analogy would be how the world is now largely run democratically as opposed to the divine right of kings - a change that most people would argue has been for the better...

Reply 39

Mick.w

Original post by Johann von Gauss

No point being miserable about something you have no power over. Start your own family, and do what you can for your kids. Things are getting worse, but at a slowing pace; soon things will get better. As time goes on, the selfish people will obviously die out, choosing not to have children, and it will be our offspring that determine humanity's future. So why not do your best to give them the best life possible?

because it takes two to make a baby.

many people have sex and get pregnant due to poor sexual education or stupidity or just pure carelessness.

some men don't wanna have kids and leave the women with the kids.

some women don't want the man who they had kids with.

some adults get together have kids with the best intentions and then quit and bail on the family.

its commonly thought of that the man is the one who bails but its not. often the women bails by divorcing the man and forcing him away from the child against his will.

the whole point of marriage being a contract to stop two immature adults bailing on the commitment to raising a child in a nuclear team is dead. marriage is just a way for people to "dig gold" or show off. marriage or not courts are biased to the mother.

so prospects as a man and having faith in a game rigged against you look unappealing. theres numerous books about this by both men and women who discuss how men are opting out of society because of the things i've mentioned.