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EU a federalist system?
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smallsvill123
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Do you think the EU is able to be accurately seen as a federalist system? I'm trying to understand federalism, and the EU..
What makes a state federalist? In the EU there are plenty of levels of governments such as the EU commission, parliament, etc....... I'm looking into what attributes the EU has with federalism, and trying to compare it to USA'S to get a better understanding.
Help appreciated!
xox
What makes a state federalist? In the EU there are plenty of levels of governments such as the EU commission, parliament, etc....... I'm looking into what attributes the EU has with federalism, and trying to compare it to USA'S to get a better understanding.
Help appreciated!
xox
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username1500433
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I wouldn't say EU is federal as each member has it's own sovereign parliament, etc. In the US, sovereignty is held by a central body and is passed down in a federal system. The EU I would say is rather different in how sovereignty is essentially passed up from each individual member to form a collective sovereignty which is held by the EU.
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smallsvill123
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#3
(Original post by will_jg)
I wouldn't say EU is federal as each member has it's own sovereign parliament, etc. In the US, sovereignty is held by a central body and is passed down in a federal system. The EU I would say is rather different in how sovereignty is essentially passed up from each individual member to form a collective sovereignty which is held by the EU.
I wouldn't say EU is federal as each member has it's own sovereign parliament, etc. In the US, sovereignty is held by a central body and is passed down in a federal system. The EU I would say is rather different in how sovereignty is essentially passed up from each individual member to form a collective sovereignty which is held by the EU.
#imayhavelostrackonmypoints
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username1500433
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#4
(Original post by smallsvill123)
great response. Is saying that the EU has different levels of governments such as the commission, EP, etc. relevant in support of the Union being federalist?
#imayhavelostrackonmypoints
great response. Is saying that the EU has different levels of governments such as the commission, EP, etc. relevant in support of the Union being federalist?
#imayhavelostrackonmypoints
Executive - European Comission
Legislature - European Parliament & The Council of the European Union
Judiciary - European Court of Justice
Many countries i.e. the UK follow the same model yet are still unitary. So I would say that it isn't particularly relevant in determining whether or not the EU is federal in nature.
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smallsvill123
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#5
(Original post by will_jg)
Debatable. I would say no. The EU still follows the basic executive, legislature, judiciary model. Being:
Executive - European Comission
Legislature - European Parliament & The Council of the European Union
Judiciary - European Court of Justice
Many countries i.e. the UK follow the same model yet are still unitary. So I would say that it isn't particularly relevant in determining whether or not the EU is federal in nature.
Debatable. I would say no. The EU still follows the basic executive, legislature, judiciary model. Being:
Executive - European Comission
Legislature - European Parliament & The Council of the European Union
Judiciary - European Court of Justice
Many countries i.e. the UK follow the same model yet are still unitary. So I would say that it isn't particularly relevant in determining whether or not the EU is federal in nature.
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gladders
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A federal state consists of constituent parts that combine to form a sovereign government over themselves for the common good. A unitary state has a sovereign government created first, and that may itself devolve power on its behalf to a subordinate part.
The EU has some aspects of the federal system, but still is not, as the EU is not sovereign - member states are. The EU has no power to enforce its will within member states (taxation, regulation, etc) and relies on the co-operation of the governments and civil services of the member states. Some member states can secure opt-outs from policies they find objectionable (such as the UK and the eurozone), and if they are found in violation of EU law it still requires the violating member state to admit defeat and get back in to line - the EU has no means of penalisation beyond leveraging fines, but it can't make the member state pay.
The EU has some aspects of the federal system, but still is not, as the EU is not sovereign - member states are. The EU has no power to enforce its will within member states (taxation, regulation, etc) and relies on the co-operation of the governments and civil services of the member states. Some member states can secure opt-outs from policies they find objectionable (such as the UK and the eurozone), and if they are found in violation of EU law it still requires the violating member state to admit defeat and get back in to line - the EU has no means of penalisation beyond leveraging fines, but it can't make the member state pay.
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smallsvill123
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#7
(Original post by gladders)
A federal state consists of constituent parts that combine to form a sovereign government over themselves for the common good. A unitary state has a sovereign government created first, and that may itself devolve power on its behalf to a subordinate part.
The EU has some aspects of the federal system, but still is not, as the EU is not sovereign - member states are. The EU has no power to enforce its will within member states (taxation, regulation, etc) and relies on the co-operation of the governments and civil services of the member states. Some member states can secure opt-outs from policies they find objectionable (such as the UK and the eurozone), and if they are found in violation of EU law it still requires the violating member state to admit defeat and get back in to line - the EU has no means of penalisation beyond leveraging fines, but it can't make the member state pay.
A federal state consists of constituent parts that combine to form a sovereign government over themselves for the common good. A unitary state has a sovereign government created first, and that may itself devolve power on its behalf to a subordinate part.
The EU has some aspects of the federal system, but still is not, as the EU is not sovereign - member states are. The EU has no power to enforce its will within member states (taxation, regulation, etc) and relies on the co-operation of the governments and civil services of the member states. Some member states can secure opt-outs from policies they find objectionable (such as the UK and the eurozone), and if they are found in violation of EU law it still requires the violating member state to admit defeat and get back in to line - the EU has no means of penalisation beyond leveraging fines, but it can't make the member state pay.
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smallsvill123
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#8
(Original post by gladders)
A federal state consists of constituent parts that combine to form a sovereign government over themselves for the common good. A unitary state has a sovereign government created first, and that may itself devolve power on its behalf to a subordinate part.
The EU has some aspects of the federal system, but still is not, as the EU is not sovereign - member states are. The EU has no power to enforce its will within member states (taxation, regulation, etc) and relies on the co-operation of the governments and civil services of the member states. Some member states can secure opt-outs from policies they find objectionable (such as the UK and the eurozone), and if they are found in violation of EU law it still requires the violating member state to admit defeat and get back in to line - the EU has no means of penalisation beyond leveraging fines, but it can't make the member state pay.
A federal state consists of constituent parts that combine to form a sovereign government over themselves for the common good. A unitary state has a sovereign government created first, and that may itself devolve power on its behalf to a subordinate part.
The EU has some aspects of the federal system, but still is not, as the EU is not sovereign - member states are. The EU has no power to enforce its will within member states (taxation, regulation, etc) and relies on the co-operation of the governments and civil services of the member states. Some member states can secure opt-outs from policies they find objectionable (such as the UK and the eurozone), and if they are found in violation of EU law it still requires the violating member state to admit defeat and get back in to line - the EU has no means of penalisation beyond leveraging fines, but it can't make the member state pay.
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smallsvill123
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#9
(Original post by will_jg)
Debatable. I would say no. The EU still follows the basic executive, legislature, judiciary model. Being:
Executive - European Comission
Legislature - European Parliament & The Council of the European Union
Judiciary - European Court of Justice
Many countries i.e. the UK follow the same model yet are still unitary. So I would say that it isn't particularly relevant in determining whether or not the EU is federal in nature.
Debatable. I would say no. The EU still follows the basic executive, legislature, judiciary model. Being:
Executive - European Comission
Legislature - European Parliament & The Council of the European Union
Judiciary - European Court of Justice
Many countries i.e. the UK follow the same model yet are still unitary. So I would say that it isn't particularly relevant in determining whether or not the EU is federal in nature.
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L i b
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#10
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#10
(Original post by smallsvill123)
Do you think the EU is able to be accurately seen as a federalist system? I'm trying to understand federalism, and the EU..
What makes a state federalist? In the EU there are plenty of levels of governments such as the EU commission, parliament, etc....... I'm looking into what attributes the EU has with federalism, and trying to compare it to USA'S to get a better understanding.
Help appreciated!
Do you think the EU is able to be accurately seen as a federalist system? I'm trying to understand federalism, and the EU..
What makes a state federalist? In the EU there are plenty of levels of governments such as the EU commission, parliament, etc....... I'm looking into what attributes the EU has with federalism, and trying to compare it to USA'S to get a better understanding.
Help appreciated!
What attributes does it have of federalism? A clear constitutional structure (the EU treaties are primary law, effectively a written constitution), legal supremacy in certain defined areas of competence above and beyond that of member-states, a directly-elected legislature, a courts system etc. The key part though is pooled sovereignty: the sovereignty of the member-states is restricted by a need to adhere to EU law.
(Original post by smallsvill123)
what evidence is there in the EU that it is turning federal? I am trying to find some but can't. #rnfoesn
what evidence is there in the EU that it is turning federal? I am trying to find some but can't. #rnfoesn
The idea of a clear Constitution in the form of the 2004 treaty could be seen as a step towards it, but it was more a symbolic one than a practical one. There was nothing particularly new in the draft Constitutional Treaty, other than its constitutional appearance.
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L i b
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#11
(Original post by gladders)
The EU has some aspects of the federal system, but still is not, as the EU is not sovereign - member states are. The EU has no power to enforce its will within member states (taxation, regulation, etc) and relies on the co-operation of the governments and civil services of the member states.
The EU has some aspects of the federal system, but still is not, as the EU is not sovereign - member states are. The EU has no power to enforce its will within member states (taxation, regulation, etc) and relies on the co-operation of the governments and civil services of the member states.
The law exists independent of enforceability in general. That we cannot prevent or punish the vast majority of assaults does not undermine the existence of law against it. I will concede however that there is a difference insofar as the EU is not only incapable of exercising authority in this way: it entirely lacks the means to do so.
But is that conclusive? I would say not.
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william walker
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The EU is simply an Anti-national system created to destroy the nation states of Europe. Of course the nation states will exist which is why the EU as a creation can't get what it wants.
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scrotgrot
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#13
(Original post by L i b)
Is sovereignty dependent on enforceability? It's often said that the traditional sovereignty of the UK Parliament is based on its ability to make and unmake any law it fancies: it cannot, for example, make the sun rise in the west - but there is no legal impediment to legislating for it.
The law exists independent of enforceability in general. That we cannot prevent or punish the vast majority of assaults does not undermine the existence of law against it. I will concede however that there is a difference insofar as the EU is not only incapable of exercising authority in this way: it entirely lacks the means to do so.
But is that conclusive? I would say not.
Is sovereignty dependent on enforceability? It's often said that the traditional sovereignty of the UK Parliament is based on its ability to make and unmake any law it fancies: it cannot, for example, make the sun rise in the west - but there is no legal impediment to legislating for it.
The law exists independent of enforceability in general. That we cannot prevent or punish the vast majority of assaults does not undermine the existence of law against it. I will concede however that there is a difference insofar as the EU is not only incapable of exercising authority in this way: it entirely lacks the means to do so.
But is that conclusive? I would say not.
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L i b
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#14
(Original post by scrotgrot)
Sovereignty is about jurisdiction. The EU only has a sort of jurisdiction over member states insofar as member states have voted to be members and to apply European directives in their own sovereign legislative jurisdictions.
Sovereignty is about jurisdiction. The EU only has a sort of jurisdiction over member states insofar as member states have voted to be members and to apply European directives in their own sovereign legislative jurisdictions.
We can refuse to implement it if we want and there's nothing in law the EU can do to stop us - I'm not even aware of any legal (as opposed to fiscal or diplomatic) mechanism by which an intransigent member state could be kicked out or otherwise punished.
Where British law conflicts with EU law, it is clear that the courts are bound - where applicable - to strike down the relevant British law. This is not theoretical: we've already had the Factortame cases. It was an English court that struck down the relevant parts of the Merchant Shipping Act 1988 when it was clear it conflicted with EU law.
I appreciate there's a big distinction between how the two operate, but ultimately what NYU2012 says about is correct: we have an established system for recognising what is law in this country, and EU law not only has effect here, in its defined areas of competence it is supreme over any legislation made by the UK Parliament.
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L i b
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#15
(Original post by william walker)
The EU is simply an Anti-national system created to destroy the nation states of Europe. Of course the nation states will exist which is why the EU as a creation can't get what it wants.
The EU is simply an Anti-national system created to destroy the nation states of Europe. Of course the nation states will exist which is why the EU as a creation can't get what it wants.
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