Why is it mainly the Left who support the EU?
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Original post by jape
EU leaders got pally with Unionists during Thatcher's Ministry, which led the Left to become ardent Europeans. Pre-Thatcher Labour was very anti-EU. Same reason Tories are so anti-Europe when you'd think the abolition of international borders and the subsequent globalisation of business that would result would be very Tory policies.
Pre-Thatcher Labour wasn't hugely anti-eu (more so than it is now) in fact under when the SDP split off threatening to withdraw was the reason (admitadely a final straw).
Original post by United1892
Pre-Thatcher Labour wasn't hugely anti-eu (more so than it is now) in fact under when the SDP split off threatening to withdraw was the reason (admitadely a final straw).
There was a power struggle that was drawn out over a decade or so, and when one side won their opinion wasn't unanimous. But ultimately Foot, Benn and the other anti-EEC labour types overcame resistance from the Marketeers.
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Original post by United1892
It's also wrong. 
Strong argument. I'd point out that anybody with a decent knowledge of the subject would realise that while I was obviously being facetious, by basic principal I'm right.
I don't expect you to agree, as judging by some of your other posts you're one of the biggest lefties on the entire forum but anyone objective would agree
Original post by KimKallstrom
Strong argument. I'd point out that anybody with a decent knowledge of the subject would realise that while I was obviously being facetious, by basic principal I'm right.
I don't expect you to agree, as judging by some of your other posts you're one of the biggest lefties on the entire forum but anyone objective would agree
I don't expect you to agree, as judging by some of your other posts you're one of the biggest lefties on the entire forum but anyone objective would agree
The suggestion that the left is massively in favour of the EU is just wrong. Euro scepticism is present within Labour and also in parties to the left of labour. The reason for people on either side is often very different, for the right it is generally either through nationalism (not neccesarily racist nationalism just a strong belief in nations), immigration (some of the left care about this) or libertarianism, for the left the concern with the EU would be much more to do with its pro-neoliberal stance and its undemocratic nature (people on the right are also concerned about that.). I will be happily be voting to leave in the referendum should it be set at a date when I can vote.
There are both big arguments for a cas for the EU on both sides of the spectrum this essentially making it so attractive to the political centre.
The EU is what you make it- the bulk of the EU is run by centre right Christian democrat parties with a slightly smaller bloc of social democrats- its not surprising that the further left and right you go- ie Tony Benn and Enoch Powell that you become more disillusioned with it especially as the political centre has has essentially held a monopoly broadly speaking for most of post war Europe.
Two points I would like to make
1/ the EU isn't going to fail any time soon- its demise is so often predicted it has become s cliche- its simy not going to happen in the foreseeable future
2- the EU is continuously evolving- sometimes dloy, sometimes not- as it respond to the migrant and the problems of the Euro it is certain to adapt.
We have a common European history and heritage. It would be an act of sheer stupidly to leave as it would be if scotland were to leave the UK. Of course we could survive- I'd rather lead the way in reform and present a united Europe to our enemies and friends.
The EU is what you make it- the bulk of the EU is run by centre right Christian democrat parties with a slightly smaller bloc of social democrats- its not surprising that the further left and right you go- ie Tony Benn and Enoch Powell that you become more disillusioned with it especially as the political centre has has essentially held a monopoly broadly speaking for most of post war Europe.
Two points I would like to make
1/ the EU isn't going to fail any time soon- its demise is so often predicted it has become s cliche- its simy not going to happen in the foreseeable future
2- the EU is continuously evolving- sometimes dloy, sometimes not- as it respond to the migrant and the problems of the Euro it is certain to adapt.
We have a common European history and heritage. It would be an act of sheer stupidly to leave as it would be if scotland were to leave the UK. Of course we could survive- I'd rather lead the way in reform and present a united Europe to our enemies and friends.
Original post by Davij038
There are both big arguments for a cas for the EU on both sides of the spectrum this essentially making it so attractive to the political centre.
The EU is what you make it- the bulk of the EU is run by centre right Christian democrat parties with a slightly smaller bloc of social democrats- its not surprising that the further left and right you go- ie Tony Benn and Enoch Powell that you become more disillusioned with it especially as the political centre has has essentially held a monopoly broadly speaking for most of post war Europe.
Two points I would like to make
1/ the EU isn't going to fail any time soon- its demise is so often predicted it has become s cliche- its simy not going to happen in the foreseeable future
2- the EU is continuously evolving- sometimes dloy, sometimes not- as it respond to the migrant and the problems of the Euro it is certain to adapt.
We have a common European history and heritage. It would be an act of sheer stupidly to leave as it would be if scotland were to leave the UK. Of course we could survive- I'd rather lead the way in reform and present a united Europe to our enemies and friends.
The EU is what you make it- the bulk of the EU is run by centre right Christian democrat parties with a slightly smaller bloc of social democrats- its not surprising that the further left and right you go- ie Tony Benn and Enoch Powell that you become more disillusioned with it especially as the political centre has has essentially held a monopoly broadly speaking for most of post war Europe.
Two points I would like to make
1/ the EU isn't going to fail any time soon- its demise is so often predicted it has become s cliche- its simy not going to happen in the foreseeable future
2- the EU is continuously evolving- sometimes dloy, sometimes not- as it respond to the migrant and the problems of the Euro it is certain to adapt.
We have a common European history and heritage. It would be an act of sheer stupidly to leave as it would be if scotland were to leave the UK. Of course we could survive- I'd rather lead the way in reform and present a united Europe to our enemies and friends.
You say that it would be an act of sheer stupidity to leave
I assure you that I do not exaggerate when I say that 80% + of all the poeople who post on the Times Online site say that the sooner we leave the better.
They simply cannot wait for the referendum.
The main reason the right are anti EU is,if you believe what they say,for sovereignty reasons.
The idea that the left are against freedom I would presume comes from the Soviet Union/Stalinism, which is simply one left wing ideology, one not shared by the majority of those to the left in the UK, including Marxists/communists (who while sharing a similar view on some matters to Stalin, most don't share his one party state stance or his authoritarian policy, but are more centre/libertarian).
As for the EU, Labour did try to take us in before the Tories successfully did that is true, however there has always been a European divide in the party, best seen with Tony Benn I'd say. However under Blair as Labour moved more to the centre/towards the right and the MPs started to reflect that, even if all the members didn't, they became a party far more united about the EU on first glance, but member wise Labour is a divide party, and the first we've seen of that in a while is Corbyn saying he is unsure if he'd campaign for a vote to stay in the EU if the social chapter was removed.
And to answer what the topic was about, it seems the left are the pro-EU party, as Labour are seen as the left party, but they are very much centre/centre-left at most, with them being on the right authoritarian part of the political compass in both 2010 and 2015, and while I haven't seen the ones for previous elections I'd wager at least for 2001 and 2005, maybe 1997 as well. However a lot of those actually on the left, and not centre-left/centre are against the neo-liberalism of the EU and against the harsh treatment of Greece, when even IMF were saying a better deal needed to be made. Some on the left would also argue that the EU could lead us into TTIP, and that is enough of a worry to get out.
As for the EU, Labour did try to take us in before the Tories successfully did that is true, however there has always been a European divide in the party, best seen with Tony Benn I'd say. However under Blair as Labour moved more to the centre/towards the right and the MPs started to reflect that, even if all the members didn't, they became a party far more united about the EU on first glance, but member wise Labour is a divide party, and the first we've seen of that in a while is Corbyn saying he is unsure if he'd campaign for a vote to stay in the EU if the social chapter was removed.
And to answer what the topic was about, it seems the left are the pro-EU party, as Labour are seen as the left party, but they are very much centre/centre-left at most, with them being on the right authoritarian part of the political compass in both 2010 and 2015, and while I haven't seen the ones for previous elections I'd wager at least for 2001 and 2005, maybe 1997 as well. However a lot of those actually on the left, and not centre-left/centre are against the neo-liberalism of the EU and against the harsh treatment of Greece, when even IMF were saying a better deal needed to be made. Some on the left would also argue that the EU could lead us into TTIP, and that is enough of a worry to get out.
Original post by moggis
You say that it would be an act of sheer stupidity to leave
I assure you that I do not exaggerate when I say that 80% + of all the poeople who post on the Times Online site say that the sooner we leave the better.
They simply cannot wait for the referendum.
The main reason the right are anti EU is,if you believe what they say,for sovereignty reasons.
I assure you that I do not exaggerate when I say that 80% + of all the poeople who post on the Times Online site say that the sooner we leave the better.
They simply cannot wait for the referendum.
The main reason the right are anti EU is,if you believe what they say,for sovereignty reasons.
Why do you think the Internet is chock full of people voting UKIP? Bitter,people with time on their hands who have time on their hands and want to vent- this is far from representative of the British people.
I vividly remember scrolling down then comment section in May where 90% of posts were from ulippers saying that UKIP would gain about 100seats or so.
Personally I wouldn't be shocked if a referendum might actually result in us leaving. Some of the downsides of the EU affect people in their lives in a more visable way while some of the benefits are less immediately visable.
For me, if the EU is done correctly, it's a great thing and, despite the downsides, I wholly support it. But then I am centrist so....
For me, if the EU is done correctly, it's a great thing and, despite the downsides, I wholly support it. But then I am centrist so....
Original post by KimKallstrom
Economocally speaking, the right believe we should be able to spend our money wherever we like without restrictions. The EU is basically a protection racket which stops this via tariffs and regulation.
So it makes sense that the right are anti-EU while the left are all for it as they hate freedom (I know that's really facetious but couldn't help myself
)
So it makes sense that the right are anti-EU while the left are all for it as they hate freedom (I know that's really facetious but couldn't help myself
)So presumably as the right are pro-freedom they will support free movement because one of the most important principles of freedom is for British firms to be able to hire who they want wherever they are from, they should not be told by a nanny state government that they have to show preference to British workers.
Original post by MagicNMedicine
So presumably as the right are pro-freedom they will support free movement because one of the most important principles of freedom is for British firms to be able to hire who they want wherever they are from, they should not be told by a nanny state government that they have to show preference to British workers.
Yeah I didn't say UKIP have it right haha. Personally I don't touch them as I am pro-EU. I was speaking in terms of ideologies as opposed to specific parties. But it's a strange one isn't it?
However if we are then one could consider that UKIP's immigration policy is actually to treat everyone (outside the UK) the same in as much as a person from Timbuktu ought to have the same shot at coming over as someone from Italy. The issue is that Europeans are given preference over Chinese, Indians and Bolivians for no reason what so ever other than they are European. This is considered wrong.
It's for this reason that it's ironic that UKIP are arguably the least racist/xenophobic of the main parties. Why should a European (who is most likely white) get privilege over someone from India or Egypt? Me? I see an upside to protectionism so the protection racket of EU isn't so bad. But do understand that it restricts economic freedom which is a key reason why a right-winger is less likely to support it.
(edited 8 years ago)
1) big government/bureaucracy (more typically left; governments having more power as opposed to individuals)
2) internationalism/anti-nationalism (typically left wing because on the world stage, states =~ competitive individuals)
3) more immigration/benefits for migrants (left wing if you're considering the world as one community)
4) green policies - seen to perhaps damage corporations which left wingers hate. also, internationalism
5) bailouts - giving people money for nothing is a more left wing idea
2) internationalism/anti-nationalism (typically left wing because on the world stage, states =~ competitive individuals)
3) more immigration/benefits for migrants (left wing if you're considering the world as one community)
4) green policies - seen to perhaps damage corporations which left wingers hate. also, internationalism
5) bailouts - giving people money for nothing is a more left wing idea
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by KimKallstrom
However if we are then one could consider that UKIP's immigration policy is actually to treat everyone (outside the UK) the same in as much as a person from Timbuktu ought to have the same shot at coming over as someone from Italy. The issue is that Europeans are given preference over Chinese, Indians and Bolivians for no reason what so ever other than they are European. This is considered wrong.
It's for this reason that it's ironic that UKIP are arguably the least racist/xenophobic of the main parties. Why should a European (who is most likely white) get privilege over someone from India or Egypt? Me? I see an upside to protectionism so the protection racket of EU isn't so bad. But do understand that it restricts economic freedom which is a key reason why a right-winger is less likely to support it.
However if we are then one could consider that UKIP's immigration policy is actually to treat everyone (outside the UK) the same in as much as a person from Timbuktu ought to have the same shot at coming over as someone from Italy. The issue is that Europeans are given preference over Chinese, Indians and Bolivians for no reason what so ever other than they are European. This is considered wrong.
It's for this reason that it's ironic that UKIP are arguably the least racist/xenophobic of the main parties. Why should a European (who is most likely white) get privilege over someone from India or Egypt? Me? I see an upside to protectionism so the protection racket of EU isn't so bad. But do understand that it restricts economic freedom which is a key reason why a right-winger is less likely to support it.
That's not UKIP's issue with the EU - UKIPs issue is that they want less immigration.
The UK's immigration policy for non-EU citizens is ENTIRELY CONTROLLED BY THE UK. So if UKIP are upset that Chinese, Indian and Egyptians are not being treated the same way as EU citizens then the UK parliament could vote to extend free movement to those countries as well or across the whole world.
Would UKIP be happy then?
Original post by zippity.doodah
1) big government/bureaucracy (more typically left; governments having more power as opposed to individuals)
2) internationalism/anti-nationalism (typically left wing because on the world stage, states =~ competitive individuals)
3) more immigration/benefits for migrants (left wing if you're considering the world as one community)
4) green policies - seen to perhaps damage corporations which left wingers hate. also, internationalism
5) bailouts - giving people money for nothing is a more left wing idea
2) internationalism/anti-nationalism (typically left wing because on the world stage, states =~ competitive individuals)
3) more immigration/benefits for migrants (left wing if you're considering the world as one community)
4) green policies - seen to perhaps damage corporations which left wingers hate. also, internationalism
5) bailouts - giving people money for nothing is a more left wing idea
1) Not really, the left isn't always pro large public sector in fact some of the left dont want one at all.
2) The Eu isnt inherently internationalist due to the fact the protectionist block is limited to europe.
3) not all the left is pro mass imigration.
4) or maybe the left just cares about the environment rather than focusing solely on business.
5) Not really bailouts for capitalist economies is at odds to socialism which is a key part of the left.
In shotr your comments are massively generalised or flat-out wrong.
Original post by United1892
1) Not really, the left isn't always pro large public sector in fact some of the left dont want one at all.
2) The Eu isnt inherently internationalist due to the fact the protectionist block is limited to europe.
3) not all the left is pro mass imigration.
4) or maybe the left just cares about the environment rather than focusing solely on business.
5) Not really bailouts for capitalist economies is at odds to socialism which is a key part of the left.
In shotr your comments are massively generalised or flat-out wrong.
2) The Eu isnt inherently internationalist due to the fact the protectionist block is limited to europe.
3) not all the left is pro mass imigration.
4) or maybe the left just cares about the environment rather than focusing solely on business.
5) Not really bailouts for capitalist economies is at odds to socialism which is a key part of the left.
In shotr your comments are massively generalised or flat-out wrong.
1) "some" = basically nobody, really. how many labour party members, for example, are going to be anarcho-communists? or, if not anarcho-communists, those you're talking about basically wouldn't be classified as "left wing" if they wanted no public sector in that sense
2) interactions between nations = internationalism. it's european internationalism (continentalism) but, still. that's, obviously, different from pure globalism. the EU is less globalistic perhaps than no EU based on your concern of protectionism - I think, personally, that the EU's nerve to have protectionism is a total joke - it's supposed to, or was supposed to, promote free market trade
3) the people who support more/mass immigration are *usually* on the left though - it's *so* typical
4) nah, those on the left despise businesses - it's very clear. we all care about the environment, but it takes left wing class politics to turn the green issues into left-right issues
5) bailouts (socialism) for capitalist economies. yes.
Original post by zippity.doodah
1) "some" = basically nobody, really. how many labour party members, for example, are going to be anarcho-communists? or, if not anarcho-communists, those you're talking about basically wouldn't be classified as "left wing" if they wanted no public sector in that sense
2) interactions between nations = internationalism. it's european internationalism (continentalism) but, still. that's, obviously, different from pure globalism. the EU is less globalistic perhaps than no EU based on your concern of protectionism - I think, personally, that the EU's nerve to have protectionism is a total joke - it's supposed to, or was supposed to, promote free market trade
3) the people who support more/mass immigration are *usually* on the left though - it's *so* typical
4) nah, those on the left despise businesses - it's very clear. we all care about the environment, but it takes left wing class politics to turn the green issues into left-right issues
5) bailouts (socialism) for capitalist economies. yes.
2) interactions between nations = internationalism. it's european internationalism (continentalism) but, still. that's, obviously, different from pure globalism. the EU is less globalistic perhaps than no EU based on your concern of protectionism - I think, personally, that the EU's nerve to have protectionism is a total joke - it's supposed to, or was supposed to, promote free market trade
3) the people who support more/mass immigration are *usually* on the left though - it's *so* typical
4) nah, those on the left despise businesses - it's very clear. we all care about the environment, but it takes left wing class politics to turn the green issues into left-right issues
5) bailouts (socialism) for capitalist economies. yes.
1) if you want to refer to labour then use labour not 'the left'. Additionally pro having a reasonable public sector isnt neccesarily pro beaurocracy.
2) To be fair for all internationalists may like the idea of a EU style institution (less protectionist, probably more like the UN is now) the UN will always be favoured.
3) those that do are split between right wing business owners and liberal style leftists.
4) Most of the left dont we just care about the environment more than business.
5) bailouts are not socialism they preserve capitlaism.
Original post by United1892
1) if you want to refer to labour then use labour not 'the left'. Additionally pro having a reasonable public sector isnt neccesarily pro beaurocracy.
2) To be fair for all internationalists may like the idea of a EU style institution (less protectionist, probably more like the UN is now) the UN will always be favoured.
3) those that do are split between right wing business owners and liberal style leftists.
4) Most of the left dont we just care about the environment more than business.
5) bailouts are not socialism they preserve capitlaism.
2) To be fair for all internationalists may like the idea of a EU style institution (less protectionist, probably more like the UN is now) the UN will always be favoured.
3) those that do are split between right wing business owners and liberal style leftists.
4) Most of the left dont we just care about the environment more than business.
5) bailouts are not socialism they preserve capitlaism.
1) very few lefties in this country as a percentage are how you're implying. and how can you have a public sector without a bureaucracy?
2) okay? and how do you know that the UN is more favoured by the left?
3) nope, I think it's an ideological thing. either it's for more "racial/cultural diversity" or it's a bleeding-heart thing that isn't concerned with the negative outcomes that come later
4) again, *everybody* cares about the environment. left wingers just want to have an excuse to bring taxation into things more than they should
5) bailouts = uncompetitive and governmental. the free market is totally at odds with bailouts. bailouts are from the people's money/taxes, just like the money for socialism. bailouts are the socialism to banks as the NHS is to the people's healthcare.
Original post by zippity.doodah
1) very few lefties in this country as a percentage are how you're implying. and how can you have a public sector without a bureaucracy?
2) okay? and how do you know that the UN is more favoured by the left?
3) nope, I think it's an ideological thing. either it's for more "racial/cultural diversity" or it's a bleeding-heart thing that isn't concerned with the negative outcomes that come later
4) again, *everybody* cares about the environment. left wingers just want to have an excuse to bring taxation into things more than they should
5) bailouts = uncompetitive and governmental. the free market is totally at odds with bailouts. bailouts are from the people's money/taxes, just like the money for socialism. bailouts are the socialism to banks as the NHS is to the people's healthcare.
2) okay? and how do you know that the UN is more favoured by the left?
3) nope, I think it's an ideological thing. either it's for more "racial/cultural diversity" or it's a bleeding-heart thing that isn't concerned with the negative outcomes that come later
4) again, *everybody* cares about the environment. left wingers just want to have an excuse to bring taxation into things more than they should
5) bailouts = uncompetitive and governmental. the free market is totally at odds with bailouts. bailouts are from the people's money/taxes, just like the money for socialism. bailouts are the socialism to banks as the NHS is to the people's healthcare.
1) public schools, nhs, nationalised railways etc arent beuracracy theyre just things which many people believe function better in the public sector.
2) it's much less interfering in everday governance and dosent promote neoliberalism.
3) Many left wing people dont want uncontrolled immigration however asylum seekers shiuld be treated with sympathy and given a chance to apply.
4) If companies didnt need extra taxation to stop them damaging the environment it wouldnt be neccesary.
5) you can argue its keynesianist economics and not fre market but it is still capitalist by nature.
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