Great article by Peter Hitchens on Corbyn

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SaucissonSecCy
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http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co....my-corbyn.html

Would be great if so many people in the centre ground now, to the left of the Tories or right of the Labour party, could read this. May genuinely provoke questions.

Optimism, maybe.
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Davij038
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Centre- grounder here.

A fringe opinion agrees with another fringe opinion that the status quo and modern Britain are horrid and need to be changed. Owen Jones and Douglas cars well seemed to have a lot in common too. Im not saying it's horseshoe theory.

But it's horseshoe theory. Muh neoliberal agenda.
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SaucissonSecCy
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Status quo is horrid.
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username878267
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(Original post by Davij038)
Centre- grounder here.

A fringe opinion agrees with another fringe opinion that the status quo and modern Britain are horrid and need to be changed. Owen Jones and Douglas cars well seemed to have a lot in common too. Im not saying it's horseshoe theory.

But it's horseshoe theory. Muh neoliberal agenda.
Horseshoe theory's a load of toss.


I never thought I'd agree with Peter Hitchens but I do here. I also like how he makes reference to the Murdoch mandate.

The term 'centre ground' is a horrible term. It's so empty yet dominates politics. It's the classical Overton window phenomenon - really narrow the scale of acceptable opinion but within that scale allow a lively debate - so you can debate heavily within the centre ground but any opinion that falls outside is regarded as extreme or unworkable.

Its tiring the monopoly they have on policies and ideas.

For all those saying Corbyn would be a disaster for labour - well what alternative would Kendall offer to cuts and austerity? What would burnham or cooper do? They're all career sound bite politicians.

Like him or loathe him Corbyn stands for something. He makes his positions clear and he gives straight answers and unlike the other 3 he won't try and engage in soundbite politics.


There is certainly a growing resentment for the 'centre ground' and the same old politics. Whether Corbyn can capitalise on that is an unknown - but he's got the best shot out of any of them.
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jape
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(Original post by Bornblue)
Horseshoe theory's a load of toss.


I never thought I'd agree with Peter Hitchens but I do here. I also like how he makes reference to the Murdoch mandate.

The term 'centre ground' is a horrible term. It's so empty yet dominates politics. It's the classical Overton window phenomenon - really narrow the scale of acceptable opinion but within that scale allow a lively debate - so you can debate heavily within the centre ground but any opinion that falls outside is regarded as extreme or unworkable.

Its tiring the monopoly they have on policies and ideas.

For all those saying Corbyn would be a disaster for labour - well what alternative would Kendall offer to cuts and austerity? What would burnham or cooper do? They're all career sound bite politicians.

Like him or loathe him Corbyn stands for something. He makes his positions clear and he gives straight answers and unlike the other 3 he won't try and engage in soundbite politics.


There is certainly a growing resentment for the 'centre ground' and the same old politics. Whether Corbyn can capitalise on that is an unknown - but he's got the best shot out of any of them.
It's not an unknown. It's a known. He can't.


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interact
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I was going to post this!! love Corbyn and Hitchens both, PETER hitchens that is
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(Original post by interact)
I was going to post this!! love Corbyn and Hitchens both, PETER hitchens that is
Chris is more up Jez's street surely


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Flibib
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A balanced article.

Prof Wren-Lewis @ Oxford offered a similar (if really short) view a while ago. An interesting piece considering he doesn't usually stray much from quite dry macro topics.

http://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/20...ativistic.html
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Mister Morality
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(Original post by Davij038)
Im not saying it's horseshoe theory.

But it's horseshoe theory. Muh neoliberal agenda.
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(Original post by jape)
Chris is more up Jez's street surely


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Based Christopher would have trashed Jez's foreign policy.
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Davij038
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(Original post by Mister Morality)
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Yeah I can see that being more accurate.

Although freedom, like equality and democracy is an ideal #nietzsche
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Corbyn's opponents haven't been able to easily take him on in terms of points of policy, because a lot of Corbyn's ideas, including the ones that seem more extreme, have support amongst the public, eg
"Corbyn wants to renationalise the railways"
"Corbyn wants to impose caps on rents"
"Corbyn wants to increase the tax burden on the rich"
"Corbyn wants us to withdraw from international foreign policy and not go to war with anyone"
"Corbyn wants an even higher minimum wage"
"Corbyn wants to use quantitative easing to finance house building"

These have been sold as extreme policies that will destroy the UK economy but the average person in the public will look at those and think sounds fair enough.

Hence the attacks on Corbyn have switched away from points of policy towards trying to make out that he's a bigoted racist, he's an anti-semite, supports Islamic fundamentalism and so on. The racist card was also played against Farage when it looked like he was getting popular, but whereas Farage talked endlessly about issues of immigration, foreigners, complaining about various groups and so on, Corbyn doesn't so it's harder to stick and looks like his opponents are scraping the barrel, especially when you realise that the evidence behind him being an anti-semite is "he once spoke at an event where there was another guy who is anti-semitic".

Will Corbyn win the leadership? Hard to say. I think it will be close. If he doesn't quite edge enough first preferences I think he will be hauled in by Cooper once Kendall is eliminated and second preferences start to count. If Corbyn wins the leadership how will he do? I can see the danger that it will be damaging to Labour - but I actually don't think it will be Corbyn that will be the problem. I think he will come across well to the public and he may start to attract some sympathy when people see the relentless personal attacks coming from the right-wing press (presumably more "he's an extremist, he supports gays, he believes in climate change, he once spoke to a guy who supports Islamic State"). The biggest issue for Corbyn will be how the parliamentary Labour party reacts as there may be a group of Labour MPs who play the politics of self-destruction, constantly attacking Corbyn and undermining him to the point where he has to resign. If they really want to do that they can, because by openly criticising their own leader 24/7 they can create the impression that he doesn't have control, and Corbyn isn't going to be a ruthless controlling leader like Blair or Brown was, whipping the troops in to line. That will reflect badly on Labour but it won't be Corbyn.
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Mister Morality
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(Original post by Davij038)
Yeah I can see that being more accurate.

Although freedom, like equality and democracy is an ideal #nietzsche
Of course it's more accurate. The horseshoe theory is designed by centrists to drive everybody to their pansy way of thinking in half-measures and compromise. Whilst compromise is good, in general, it is not good when your principles are compromised: i.e. liberty.
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Davij038
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(Original post by Bornblue)
Horseshoe theory's a load of toss.

I never thought I'd agree with Peter Hitchens but I do here. I also like how he makes reference to the Murdoch mandate.
Yeah no it's spot on. Idealists on both sides of the spectrum wonder why their ideal society hadn't come about and yeah it's because of the media/Jews/ lizards etc. society isn't free but it will be in our socialist/ conservative vision...


The term 'centre ground' is a horrible term. It's so empty yet dominates politics. It's the classical Overton window phenomenon - really narrow the scale of acceptable opinion but within that scale allow a lively debate - so you can debate heavily within the centre ground but any opinion that falls outside is regarded as extreme or unworkable.

Its tiring the monopoly they have on policies and ideas.
This can be said of virtually the entirety of political thought. How many times do we hear of political 'purity' as in a 'real' left wing / Tory government would.



For all those saying Corbyn would be a disaster for labour - well what alternative would Kendall offer to cuts and austerity? What would burnham or cooper do? They're all career sound bite politicians.
An opposition which does nothing but oppose the government out of principle doesn't work- as evidenced by the last shadow cabinet. Yes they signed up to some austerity but toa far lesser extent. The so Called anti austerity snp flew around in a helicopter pretty much parroting labour.

Like him or loathe him Corbyn stands for something. He makes his positions clear and he gives straight answers and unlike the other 3 he won't try and engage in soundbite politics.
And this is the problem. Corbyn and Farage are both plain talking, probably pretty decent people who you'd think would be far more interesting company than say chucka umnumma or Nick clegg. That isn't the sort of people that people really want to be running the show.

I was down in Brighton recently and was asking about Caroline Lucas. The only thing people aid about hed was that she was really nice and friendly. Yeah she hadn't really done much there and some of the stuff the green council has done is akin to fawlty towers but what mattered was that she was nice. My nan is nice. That shouldn't be a requirement to running the country. Hell, I actually think most politicians are nice. You don't get elected by being a c###.

The point is that as much as people like authentic rabble rousers like Galloway for instance they're never going to get into power for that very reason- hence the mantra if the centre ground.

There is certainly a growing resentment for the 'centre ground' and the same old politics. Whether Corbyn can capitalise on that is an unknown - but he's got the best shot out of any of them.
I think no matter what labour does it's not going to win. What it can do is have a damage control system in place where it can hold its current crop and then prepare to consolidate victories in key seats like Watford where as far as Corbyn is concerned, isn't going to happen.
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(Original post by Mister Morality)
Of course it's more accurate. The horseshoe theory is designed by centrists to drive everybody to their pansy way of thinking in half-measures and compromise. Whilst compromise is good, in general, it is not good when your principles are compromised: i.e. liberty.
I'm a libertarian in principle but a centrist in practice.

Centrism is the inevitable result of democracy which may or may not be a good thing but i can't see there being much of an alternative. Also what's to say that instead of getting your libertarian utopia you get Bornblues socialist paradise instead?

It's s a bit early to be discuusing The concept of Liberty but as I said it's an impossible ideal which will inevitably be compromised no matter whose in power. Whilst done idealism is needed I think pragmatism is a far better system. To paraphrase Nietzsche- principle is merely prudence.
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Mister Morality
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(Original post by Davij038)
I'm a libertarian in principle but a centrist in practice.

Centrism is the inevitable result of democracy which may or may not be a good thing but i can't see there being much of an alternative. Also what's to say that instead of getting your libertarian utopia you get Bornblues socialist paradise instead?

It's s a bit early to be discuusing The concept of Liberty but as I said it's an impossible ideal which will inevitably be compromised no matter whose in power. Whilst done idealism is needed I think pragmatism is a far better system. To paraphrase Nietzsche- principle is merely prudence.
Of course. I'm a conservative and so you would have to agree that my "liberty" is compromised by anarchist standards. We have institutions which create an order and pass on generational knowledge.

The kind of liberty I desire is not intangible- it's also very manageable. It just means denuding our government's power slightly, whilst still retaining sovereignty.
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(Original post by Davij038)
Yeah no it's spot on. Idealists on both sides of the spectrum wonder why their ideal society hadn't come about and yeah it's because of the media/Jews/ lizards etc. society isn't free but it will be in our socialist/ conservative vision...
The problem here is that you're completely wrong.
Lets compare Farage with Corbyn - both people you'd consider on the fringes.
Farage wants a huge cramp down on immigration - Corbyn doesn't. Farage hates multi culturalism - Corbyn loves it. Farage wants a small state - Corbyn wants a big one. Farage wants the NHS privatised - Corbyn certainly doesn't.

Farage's economic views are far right Corbyns are centre left.

Now yes, they both detest the 'centre ground' and its monopoly on opinion and the way it shouts down any view falling outside it but it's incredibly lazy to claim that because they have a common 'enemy' that they are the same or similar which is what your horsehoe theory suggests.

And accusing those on the left of blaming Jews or Lizards is petty. And for the millionth time - the media of course have a huge role in maintaing the so called 'centre ground' and casting off any opinions outside that as extreme.
Nothing better illustrates this point than Israeli politics. The far left hate Netanyahu because they see him as a war mongerer and harsh on Palestinians, the far right hate him because they see him as some leftist who gives far too much to Palestinians. Yes the both dislike him, but for very, very different reasons - they are not at all similar to each other.





An opposition which does nothing but oppose the government out of principle doesn't work- as evidenced by the last shadow cabinet. Yes they signed up to some austerity but toa far lesser extent. The so Called anti austerity snp flew around in a helicopter pretty much parroting labour.
And the SNP with their anti-austerity message stormed to victory.
The idea that they'd come running back into any of the other three's arms is laughable.
Labour didn't offer a clear alternative at the last election. You had 3 parties fighting over the nonsense 'centre ground'.

And this is the problem. Corbyn and Farage are both plain talking, probably pretty decent people who you'd think would be far more interesting company than say chucka umnumma or Nick clegg. That isn't the sort of people that people really want to be running the show.
You have no idea how Corbyn will do as leader.
And incase you didn't realise Farage won 4 million votes - i'd say that means quite a lot of people wanted him running the show.

I was down in Brighton recently and was asking about Caroline Lucas. The only thing people aid about hed was that she was really nice and friendly. Yeah she hadn't really done much there and some of the stuff the green council has done is akin to fawlty towers but what mattered was that she was nice. My nan is nice. That shouldn't be a requirement to running the country. Hell, I actually think most politicians are nice. You don't get elected by being a c###.
Of course you get elected being a c...
You could tie a blue ribbon around a pig and right wing people would vote tory. The left are too fragmented for their own good.

The point is that as much as people like authentic rabble rousers like Galloway for instance they're never going to get into power for that very reason- hence the mantra if the centre ground.
Comparing Corbyn and Galloway is a lazy, smear comparison.



I think no matter what labour does it's not going to win. What it can do is have a damage control system in place where it can hold its current crop and then prepare to consolidate victories in key seats like Watford where as far as Corbyn is concerned, isn't going to happen.
Again, no on knows how Corbyn will do. But what we do know is that the other three will slump to uninspiring defeats.
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(Original post by Bornblue)
Horseshoe theory's a load of toss.


I never thought I'd agree with Peter Hitchens but I do here. I also like how he makes reference to the Murdoch mandate.

The term 'centre ground' is a horrible term. It's so empty yet dominates politics. It's the classical Overton window phenomenon - really narrow the scale of acceptable opinion but within that scale allow a lively debate - so you can debate heavily within the centre ground but any opinion that falls outside is regarded as extreme or unworkable.

Its tiring the monopoly they have on policies and ideas.

For all those saying Corbyn would be a disaster for labour - well what alternative would Kendall offer to cuts and austerity? What would burnham or cooper do? They're all career sound bite politicians.

Like him or loathe him Corbyn stands for something. He makes his positions clear and he gives straight answers and unlike the other 3 he won't try and engage in soundbite politics.


There is certainly a growing resentment for the 'centre ground' and the same old politics. Whether Corbyn can capitalise on that is an unknown - but he's got the best shot out of any of them.
Cheers. You've summed up exactly how I feel. What's amazing, although it is encouraging, is just how long and how much sheer debilitating disillusion and ennui it took to even get to this point, of even consider anything different as just one option in our politics, and not being cowed into submission.
It shows how a lot of the time, and even with the way this may end, that the media does not remotely 'represent the people's true wishes' nor do political party machines. Not for a very long time at least. They decide the parameters allowed for policies and even personality, then it's open season on the person and the fans of the person who is found guilty of even deviating a tiny bit from outside those constraints. They have huge influence to frame the debate, find personal smears or character doubts, which is always a double standard, and of course people don't want to be on the losing side or seen as believing in something very silly. People who claim they don't try and do this or have no effect are being either naive or utterly disingenuous. IAs you say, it is utterly demotivating and hence low turnout. I think what's happened here is it can only be sustained so long, and people's minds are now so numb and politics has exasperated them so much, that the media can;t throw at least this group of people off track. I think sadly it may only be a minor democratic resurgence then business as usual, but I have learnt to keep my hopes down.
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Them by Jon Ronson is a good study on this. Basically about how extremist ******s like Stormfront Nazi types, Alex Jones, Islamic extremists like Abu Hamza etc believe in more or less the same dumb arse stuff.
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(Original post by Davij038)
Centre- grounder here.

A fringe opinion agrees with another fringe opinion that the status quo and modern Britain are horrid and need to be changed. Owen Jones and Douglas cars well seemed to have a lot in common too. Im not saying it's horseshoe theory.

But it's horseshoe theory. Muh neoliberal agenda.
Douglas Cars and Owen Jones the same??? :rofl:


Stricly economically speaking pre Thatcher Conservatism is left nutty fascism apparently.
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