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Are the numeracy reasoning that important for the job or they are just to eliminate? watch

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    I am not trying to brag, but it may come across like that. What I am trying is to blow off some steam and seek what others think about this.

    Well, I am graduating from a top university with computer engineering, with top grade and several research publications. But the numeracy reasoning tests for job applications are proving to be the bane of my life. I am getting the impression that nothing else matters unless you can crunch 25 tables of data (including calculations like14.6% of 243.56) in 20 minutes or so. God, if that is what I was meant to do, I would just crunch numbers after finishing my high school, instead of publishing papers on machine learning or going for masters/Ph.D. in language processing.


    The test providers' websites project the skill as the most important one you can have, of course, much more important than doing original research and coming up with ideas etc. But seriously, do the companies think that someone with a good CV (I am sure many others in the site have much better) goes total retard after finishing their Ph.D. in engineering and cannot calculate a ratio? Or is that what their staffs do all they long? Or they have to, like finish four long divisions in a minute so that they can run the company well?

    Are there other people who think like me? Apparently, the test providers seem to be the biggest beneficiaries of this data-driven system.


    On the same note, it seems like nothing else matters. No matter how much research you do about the industry, their latest trend, even if you have some original opinion about the industry trend and how the company can leverage it etc., everything is secondary to calculations of percentage and ratios in milliseconds. God, why don't they recruit an A9x processor?

    And if they have to do online testing, why not give some really difficult conceptual problems, like programming puzzle or a geometry problem with more time?
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    Eliminate


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    iis a filter

    tbf the job isn't that difficult, if you want something difficult go find cures to cancer
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    Try applying for entry-level instead of graduate jobs? The process tends to focus more on a series of interviews rather than all the crappy tests and assessment centres you'd have to do as a grad.
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    (Original post by ninaporter)
    Try applying for entry-level instead of graduate jobs? The process tends to focus more on a series of interviews rather than all the crappy tests and assessment centres you'd have to do as a grad.
    Thanks for the input, but I am a bit confused. What is the difference between entry level job and graduate job? I thought graduates are supposed to start at entry level, without experience.
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    (Original post by gr8wizard10)
    iis a filter

    tbf the job isn't that difficult, if you want something difficult go find cures to cancer
    Well, the job might be difficult in a different way than researching for a cancer cure. I have absolutely no illusion that CEOs or top executives or the hedge fund managers do an easy job at managing billions of dollars of money, multiple projects across continents. I have utmost respects for them.

    But I am questioning whether crunching 25 percentage and ratio calculations in 15 minutes (which can be considered difficult in its own way) is a good indication of the fitness for the kind of positions involving software developer, analyst or pricing etc. (which may potentially lead to a higher level management positions).

    Even more annoying is when the test makers' sites like SHL, Kennexa etc. tout such things as the ultimate indicator of an individual's ability to perform or his employability. A few days ago I read in one such site


    "The numerical tests are not meant to test your mathematical skill. Mathematical skill requires memorisation of formulae by heart instead of understanding the techniques. These tests are designed to judge your common sense, calculation ability etc."

    I wager that the guy who wrote this never touched a college level book on mathematics. Otherwise, he would have more respect for mathematical skill and would know mathematics is rarely about memorising formulae beyond the high school level. As someone who studied graduate level mathematics (as part of my computer science research) and published in areas which fall on the boundary between math and computer science, am I the only one who feels insulted?
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    (Original post by The Spartan Guy)
    Well, the job might be difficult in a different way than researching for a cancer cure. I have absolutely no illusion that CEOs or top executives or the hedge fund managers do an easy job at managing billions of dollars of money, multiple projects across continents. I have utmost respects for them.

    But I am questioning whether crunching 25 percentage and ratio calculations in 15 minutes (which can be considered difficult in its own way) is a good indication of the fitness for the kind of positions involving software developer, analyst or pricing etc. (which may potentially lead to a higher level management positions).

    Even more annoying is when the test makers' sites like SHL, Kennexa etc. tout such things as the ultimate indicator of an individual's ability to perform or his employability. A few days ago I read in one such site


    "The numerical tests are not meant to test your mathematical skill. Mathematical skill requires memorisation of formulae by heart instead of understanding the techniques. These tests are designed to judge your common sense, calculation ability etc."

    I wager that the guy who wrote this never touched a college level book on mathematics. Otherwise, he would have more respect for mathematical skill and would know mathematics is rarely about memorising formulae beyond the high school level. As someone who studied graduate level mathematics (as part of my computer science research) and published in areas which fall on the boundary between math and computer science, am I the only one who feels insulted?
    Probably yes, I doubt anyone else cares.

    The tests are good at determining if new investment banking analysts will understand why stuff like growth= return on invested capital*investment rate or present value = cashflow/(1+discount rate)^time particularly if they're from like a history background. The job isn't just crunching numbers but being numerically literate is a basic requirement, which is what they're testing. They're not going to make applicants sit a paper on stochastic processes for a job that requires year 9 maths.
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    (Original post by The Spartan Guy)
    I am not trying to brag, but it may come across like that. What I am trying is to blow off some steam and seek what others think about this.

    Well, I am graduating from a top university with computer engineering, with top grade and several research publications. But the numeracy reasoning tests for job applications are proving to be the bane of my life. I am getting the impression that nothing else matters unless you can crunch 25 tables of data (including calculations like14.6% of 243.56) in 20 minutes or so. God, if that is what I was meant to do, I would just crunch numbers after finishing my high school, instead of publishing papers on machine learning or going for masters/Ph.D. in language processing.


    The test providers' websites project the skill as the most important one you can have, of course, much more important than doing original research and coming up with ideas etc. But seriously, do the companies think that someone with a good CV (I am sure many others in the site have much better) goes total retard after finishing their Ph.D. in engineering and cannot calculate a ratio? Or is that what their staffs do all they long? Or they have to, like finish four long divisions in a minute so that they can run the company well?

    Are there other people who think like me? Apparently, the test providers seem to be the biggest beneficiaries of this data-driven system.


    On the same note, it seems like nothing else matters. No matter how much research you do about the industry, their latest trend, even if you have some original opinion about the industry trend and how the company can leverage it etc., everything is secondary to calculations of percentage and ratios in milliseconds. God, why don't they recruit an A9x processor?

    And if they have to do online testing, why not give some really difficult conceptual problems, like programming puzzle or a geometry problem with more time?
    Speaking as someone whose ex husband was a partner in the industry -yes they are a filter. You may not be surprised that the industry receives thousands of applications. Just because you have a good degree does not mean that you are necessarily numerate and in fact some of the - shall we say - lesser universities churn out firsts like sweeties.

    My daughter shares a flat with a chap doing a masters in Geology - he cannot do maths to save his life. She has had to do all his calculations for him. So on paper he looks numerate but in reality he is great with rocks….
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    (Original post by The Spartan Guy)
    Thanks for the input, but I am a bit confused. What is the difference between entry level job and graduate job? I thought graduates are supposed to start at entry level, without experience.
    Sorry, let me rephrase that. Try applying for entry level jobs rather than graduate schemes.

    They're basically the same thing, in terms of the work you'll be doing once you start at a firm. Schemes are also generally more rigidly structured than entry jobs too. The pay might vary slightly as well. Schemes tend to be for hiring quite a few people while typically an entry level advert is targeted to find just the one person.

    The major difference is in the recruitment process, I think. With schemes you're competing with so many people, and theygive you those tests to filter put candidates. Plus the recruitment cycle is quite set, with jobs usually starting in September.

    For entry-level, you focus on interviews, rather than tests. Also they could pop up at any time of the year. Plus you'll find that many firms which don't offer an annual grad scheme will occasionally hire an entry-level person. Plus you don't have tobe a recent grad to get an entry level job. Career changers tend to go for these.

    More info: http://www.graduates.co.uk/graduate-...er-university/
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    (Original post by The Spartan Guy)
    I am not trying to brag, but it may come across like that. What I am trying is to blow off some steam and seek what others think about this.

    Well, I am graduating from a top university with computer engineering, with top grade and several research publications. But the numeracy reasoning tests for job applications are proving to be the bane of my life. I am getting the impression that nothing else matters unless you can crunch 25 tables of data (including calculations like14.6% of 243.56) in 20 minutes or so. God, if that is what I was meant to do, I would just crunch numbers after finishing my high school, instead of publishing papers on machine learning or going for masters/Ph.D. in language processing.


    The test providers' websites project the skill as the most important one you can have, of course, much more important than doing original research and coming up with ideas etc. But seriously, do the companies think that someone with a good CV (I am sure many others in the site have much better) goes total retard after finishing their Ph.D. in engineering and cannot calculate a ratio? Or is that what their staffs do all they long? Or they have to, like finish four long divisions in a minute so that they can run the company well?

    Are there other people who think like me? Apparently, the test providers seem to be the biggest beneficiaries of this data-driven system.


    On the same note, it seems like nothing else matters. No matter how much research you do about the industry, their latest trend, even if you have some original opinion about the industry trend and how the company can leverage it etc., everything is secondary to calculations of percentage and ratios in milliseconds. God, why don't they recruit an A9x processor?

    And if they have to do online testing, why not give some really difficult conceptual problems, like programming puzzle or a geometry problem with more time?
    Filtering. But if you are clever as you think you are, the numeracy tests should be a breeze for you
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    (Original post by goape)
    Filtering. But if you are clever as you think you are, the numeracy tests should be a breeze for you
    Thanks, I am not claiming to be clever. Also, those tests have absolutely nothing to do with cleverness. They are mostly about speed. I know how to calculate 14.3% of 45.35, but I cannot do it in milliseconds. Anyway, I am practising.
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    (Original post by The Spartan Guy)
    Thanks, I am not claiming to be clever. Also, those tests have absolutely nothing to do with cleverness. They are mostly about speed. I know how to calculate 14.3% of 45.35, but I cannot do it in milliseconds. Anyway, I am practising.
    Hey mate, I got an A* in GCSE Maths, A at A Level Maths and a 2.1 degree in Maths and finance, so you would think that someone of my level would be able to pass these numeracy tests on first attempt. The truth is, like you, I couldn't pass it and kept failing miserably. Now I can pass the tests with 99% certainty and it was all down to practice - start practicing my friend!
 
 
 
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