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    (Original post by wanderer)
    Ah, this society can have one hell of a discussion when it gets going. Pages and pages of "no, its you that doesn't understand my argument." Its what makes life worth living.
    yep

    i agree

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    (Original post by Calvin)
    So long as we stick to Plato I'm happy. Last time we were discussing metaphysics and logic my Logic got involved. (see page 17 ish) Scared the bejesus out of me.
    But I'm pretty sure I can out Plato him - he is after all a philosophy of mathematics kinda guy. Oh god... that's a Plato topic isn't it. :rolleyes:

    yep

    i like Plato and his forms

    such an easy topic
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    (Original post by Calvin)
    Hey whoa wait a second, lets not just dismiss Plato here. Plato argues the good is the divine. I think you're stereotyping him a little with the idea that because he's greek he must have really believed in the anthropomorphic Greek Gods most prevalent soe few hundred years before.

    Plato never makes any mention of the Greek gods. He fully identifies the Good as the most divine thing that exists. The only god I can find a strong reference to is the Demigurg - the creator in, I think, the Theatetus (?).
    But that isn't a God particularly, more a creator. So yes Plato's Good is distinct from a God - it's a right principle which ordains how the world should be. How the perfect being should act, how the world should be etc. And one is good by resembling and partaking in this divine form. You call something good simply because it resembles the Good in some way. So his Good isn't very different the Christian God in this respect.
    It differs in that it just isn't conscious, and doesn't act, it just is. Which, seeing as how God is supposed to be unchanging, fits much better with me than the idea of a divine person who goes out and does things everyday - thus presumably must live inside time etc etc. As Herodotus said, to be imperfect is to become, to be divine is to be. If anything, Plato's good is more divine that the Christian account of God.
    Good point, I've always maintained the Plato was implicitly a monotheist.
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    (Original post by rahmara)
    yep

    i like Plato and his forms

    such an easy topic
    At A level maybe. I had a long argument with a convinced platonist once that was far from easy.
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    (Original post by Calvin)
    So long as we stick to Plato I'm happy. Last time we were discussing metaphysics and logic my Logic got involved. (see page 17 ish) Scared the bejesus out of me.
    But I'm pretty sure I can out Plato him - he is after all a philosophy of mathematics kinda guy. Oh god... that's a Plato topic isn't it. :rolleyes:
    Out Plato who? Me or grumballcake? I'm not a philosophy of mathematics type, I just happen to do maths and like philosophy. And I thought grumballcake was a rel. phil. type?
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    (Original post by wanderer)
    At A level maybe. I had a long argument with a convinced platonist once that was far from easy.
    cool

    :cool:
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    (Original post by wanderer)
    Out Plato who? Me or grumballcake? I'm not a philosophy of mathematics type, I just happen to do maths and like philosophy. And I thought grumballcake was a rel. phil. type?
    Sorry, missed out the word 'supervisor'. My logic supervisor got involved in our last major discussion. But I think I could out Plato him except... yata yata yata see previous post
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    hey there calvin

    how are you?
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    lol, sorry, logged off.
    I'm just dandy, off to watch a movie with my flat mates, drink some beer and generally not work. How are you?
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    (Original post by Calvin)
    lol, sorry, logged off.
    I'm just dandy, off to watch a movie with my flat mates, drink some beer and generally not work. How are you?
    yep

    im very good thanks

    just revisng Utilitarianism :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Calvin)
    lol, sorry, logged off.
    I'm just dandy, off to watch a movie with my flat mates, drink some beer and generally not work. How are you?
    Heh. I can see life is going to be very different when I'm a student. This evening I watched a movie with my family, drank quite a bit of cider, and generally didn't work. Even though its important 'getting into uni' type work. Oh dear.
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    (Original post by rahmara)
    yep

    im very good thanks

    just revisng Utilitarianism :rolleyes:

    Utilitarianism. Ethics. Yuck! I hate Mil.
    Glad to hear it. I've got to do a three hour exam condition past paper tomorrow... :rolleyes: That's all I've got to say about that: ":rolleyes:"

    (Original post by Wanderer)
    Heh. I can see life is going to be very different when I'm a student. This evening I watched a movie with my family, drank quite a bit of cider, and generally didn't work. Even though its important 'getting into uni' type work. Oh dear.
    Very different. Czech Budva, none of this cider crap! You should be ashamed of yourself! :eek:
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    (Original post by Calvin)
    Very different. Czech Budva, none of this cider crap! You should be ashamed of yourself! :eek:
    Ah, but this is proper traditional English cider, not mass produced rubbish. 8% alcohol so stronger than budwar! :p: I'm a little wobbly.
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    hey calvin

    i love utilitarianism

    espcially Bentham

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    (Original post by wanderer)
    Ah, but this is proper traditional English cider, not mass produced rubbish. 8% alcohol so stronger than budwar! :p: I'm a little wobbly.
    Even so, still manages to taste like urine thats gone off.
    I'm not impressed, not impressed at all!

    Rahmara - how can you love Utilitarianism? I mean, it's dull! There's nothing to love!
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    (Original post by Calvin)
    Even so, still manages to taste like urine thats gone off.
    I'm not impressed, not impressed at all!

    Rahmara - how can you love Utilitarianism? I mean, it's dull! There's nothing to love!
    Cider tastes like alcoholic apple juice! Anyway, I try to love all drinks equally, with a few exceptions (I can't stand most alcopops and I had a bad experience with neat gin).

    Utilitarianism is no more dull than most ethics, and considerably more palatable than a lot of the other options.
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    (Original post by Calvin)
    Plato never makes any mention of the Greek gods.
    Errm. Without being rude, have you actually read Euthyphro?

    "Socrates. Then, my friend, I remark with surprise that you have not answered the question which I asked. For I certainly did not ask you to tell me what action is both pious and impious: but now it would seem that what is loved by the gods is also hated by them. And therefore, Euthyphro, in thus chastising your father you may very likely be doing what is agreeable to Zeus but disagreeable to Cronos or Uranus, and what is acceptable to Hephaestus but unacceptable to Here, and there may be other gods who have similar differences of opinion."

    I mean one whole thrust of Socrates' argument is that the gods disagree. (Hint for those who don't know, Plato wrote this, but uses Socrates as his proponent).

    "I will amend the definition so far as to say that what all the gods hate is impious, and what they love pious or holy; and what some of them love and others hate is both or neither. Shall this be our definition of piety and impiety? "

    It's one thing to argue that Plato didn't really believe the Euthyphro dilemma personally, but that's outside the remit of the text itself, isn't it? I'm not denying that Plato influenced Christian thought - particularly through Augustine, but I think it's reasonable that I take a contemporary Christian basis which has moved on from Platonism.

    If anything, Plato's good is more divine that the Christian account of God.
    Only if you haven't kept up with the literature.
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    (Original post by wanderer)
    Utilitarianism is no more dull than most ethics, and considerably more palatable than a lot of the other options.
    It's dull and deeply flawed. It only sounds convincing if you don't think about it too hard. The "sadistic guards" objection pretty much sees it off anyway. It's all wriggling after that.
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    Utilitarianism is amazing (exactly as amazing as morality itself, unsurprisingly).
    It certainly is convincing, this "sadistic guard objection," if it is what I think it is, is entirely impotent to offer criticism of utilitarianism. Certainly there isn't a preferable model for ethics.
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    (Original post by TCovenant)
    It certainly is convincing, this "sadistic guard objection," if it is what I think it is, is entirely impotent to offer criticism of utilitarianism. Certainly there isn't a preferable model for ethics.
    If by the painless genocide of 1 million people, you could improve the lives of 2 million others, would the genocide be ethically justified?

    Let's clarify: the 1 million suffer no pain and any emotional distress is only short-lived. The 2 million enjoy many years of productive life at a level above that of the 1 million (or the 2 million without the genocide). So we have the greatest good for the greatest number. Don't we?
 
 
 
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