Could America have won WW2 without Britain? Watch

Thomas2
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In either theatre or both, although in Europe let's presume that UK (up to Hadrian's wall) and Ireland were in German hands.
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Arbolus
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Not impossible, but it would be very difficult to say the least. Before American troops could even get to Europe they would have to fight the Atlantic equivalent of the Pacific War, only harder because the Atlantic islands are fewer and further apart.

If mainland Britain and Ireland were in German hands then it's likely that the smaller islands, Iceland, and the Faeroes would be too. That means that the nearest land where American planes could be based would be Greenland or, failing that, Newfoundland. There would be aircraft carriers, of course, but not enough to fight in both the Pacific and the Atlantic simultaneously, and of the two I think America would be more likely to focus on the Pacific where it had colonies.

Therefore, the liberation of Europe couldn't even begin until 1945 at the earliest, and by that time either Germany or the Soviet Union would be in complete control of the continent. I doubt any American would have an appetite for another fight then.
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Gwilym101
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If fighting in both theatres I doubt it. Possibly if Ireland wasn't in German hands as they'd have a staging area if Ireland had gone as well as the UK, no. It just wouldn't have been feasible.

However they probably wouldn't have gotten involved in WW2 if Pearl Harbour hadn't happened and we hadn't bribed them with all our advanced military technology.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Thomas2)
In either theatre or both, although in Europe let's presume that UK (up to Hadrian's wall) and Ireland were in German hands.
Very difficult to impossible to sustain an amphibious assault without a logistics base nearby.

Realistically, the Americans would've had a negotiated peace.

out of intersts, why did you ignore the Canadians, Australians, Indians etc?
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Howard
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I think that the Americans would still have nuked Japan and won the Pacific war but then negotiated peace with Germany.
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Thomas2
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Very difficult to impossible to sustain an amphibious assault without a logistics base nearby.

Realistically, the Americans would've had a negotiated peace.

out of intersts, why did you ignore the Canadians, Australians, Indians etc?
I suppose I was including them under the umbrella of the British Empire and Commonwealth as it then was.

Allegedly "British" troops kept suffering defeats to German forces of smaller numbers etc. in the early years of the war, not to mention in the Far East. Depending on which historian one reads, one can sometimes be left with the impression that Britain's role was actually not that significant.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Thomas2)
I suppose I was including them under the umbrella of the British Empire and Commonwealth as it then was.

Allegedly "British" troops kept suffering defeats to German forces of smaller numbers etc. in the early years of the war, not to mention in the Far East. Depending on which historian one reads, one can sometimes be left with the impression that Britain's role was actually not that significant.
You're correct. The Germans were able to effectively build upon their own strengths. At he start of ww2 Germany was predominantly horse drawn unlike the fully mechanised BEF. France and Britain had numerical and material advantages in men and equipment but the Germans just deployed what they had more effectively, in many cases applying tactics developed in the UK in the 30s.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._H._Liddell_Hart

After the fall of France the only fully equipped division in the UK to stop german invasion was a Canadian division.

Fortunately, operTion sealion was a non starter and worse case scenario the UK would've sued for peace.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oper...Lion_(wargame)
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by Howard)
I think that the Americans would still have nuked Japan and won the Pacific war but then negotiated peace with Germany.
Don't forget that Hitler had already attacked the US directly, by sinking US ships in the Atlantic and harassing the Eastern seaboard. I don't think it would have been at all easy to simply live and let live, politically the US authorities would have wanted to continue. It was also very much in US strategic interests to destroy the Nazi empire. I think the US would have gone on to nuke Hitler at the end of a longer and bloodier war with much greater US losses. Probably the Soviets would have reached Paris though by then.
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Thomas2
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Don't forget that Hitler had already attacked the US directly, by sinking US ships in the Atlantic and harassing the Eastern seaboard. I don't think it would have been at all easy to simply live and let live, politically the US authorities would have wanted to continue. It was also very much in US strategic interests to destroy the Nazi empire. I think the US would have gone on to nuke Hitler at the end of a longer and bloodier war with much greater US losses. Probably the Soviets would have reached Paris though by then.
But that was because America was supplying Britain with supplies and munitions.
If Britain had done a deal in 1940 or had been invaded that would not have been an issue. Hitler may still have declared war on America though in support of his Japanese ally. His ego would have been much bigger too.

Have you read BoJo's book on Churchill?
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Thomas2
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Don't forget that Hitler had already attacked the US directly, by sinking US ships in the Atlantic and harassing the Eastern seaboard. I don't think it would have been at all easy to simply live and let live, politically the US authorities would have wanted to continue. It was also very much in US strategic interests to destroy the Nazi empire. I think the US would have gone on to nuke Hitler at the end of a longer and bloodier war with much greater US losses. Probably the Soviets would have reached Paris though by then.
Don't forget that Britain was supplying Russia via Archangel.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by Thomas2)
But that was because America was supplying Britain with supplies and munitions.
If Britain had done a deal in 1940 or had been invaded that would not have been an issue. Hitler may still have declared war on America though in support of his Japanese ally. His ego would have been much bigger too.

Have you read BoJo's book on Churchill?
I guess it depends at what precise point our alternative history starts. If Japan had never attacked the US, the US would probably not have declared war on Germany in the absence of a reverse declaration for a long time. However, the German raids on US shipping started before Pearl Harbor, so there were already growing reasons for the US to be non-neutral as regards Britain, not to mention all the cultural and business ties. It's hard to come up with a history where the US does not get involved against the Nazis, in my opinion, although Robert Harris's nuclear stalemate between the Europe-ruling Nazis and the Western Hemisphere-bound US in 'Fatherland' is the most plausible one I've read. I haven't read Boris's scribblings, I don't like to send him money. :teehee:
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Don't forget that Hitler had already attacked the US directly, by sinking US ships in the Atlantic and harassing the Eastern seaboard. I don't think it would have been at all easy to simply live and let live, politically the US authorities would have wanted to continue. It was also very much in US strategic interests to destroy the Nazi empire. I think the US would have gone on to nuke Hitler at the end of a longer and bloodier war with much greater US losses. Probably the Soviets would have reached Paris though by then.
Unlikely. The Americans lacked the aircraft to carry a nuclear Bomb across the Atlantic and would've been delayed in their nuclear programme due to lack of British support.

I know that the soviets did a phenomenal job on ww2, but I'm yet to be convinced that they could've edge you defeated nazi her many by themselves.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Unlikely. The Americans lacked the aircraft to carry a nuclear Bomb across the Atlantic and would've been delayed in their nuclear programme due to lack of British support.

I know that the soviets did a phenomenal job on ww2, but I'm yet to be convinced that they could've edge you defeated nazi her many by themselves.
It depends how long they had to develop things. In our alternative history, it could have been 1948 or 8 before they nuked Germany - and by then, they did have the long range bombers.

I think the truth is that the Soviets had a huge amount of US assistance, particularly in food, trucks and vital supplies, but without that, they could have eventually defeated the Nazis single-handed, but only with immensely more suffering and loss and more protracted battles. Maybe crossing the Oder in 1947 or something like that.
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Howard
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Don't forget that Hitler had already attacked the US directly, by sinking US ships in the Atlantic and harassing the Eastern seaboard. I don't think it would have been at all easy to simply live and let live, politically the US authorities would have wanted to continue. It was also very much in US strategic interests to destroy the Nazi empire. I think the US would have gone on to nuke Hitler at the end of a longer and bloodier war with much greater US losses. Probably the Soviets would have reached Paris though by then.
Maybe.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
It depends how long they had to develop things. In our alternative history, it could have been 1948 or 8 before they nuked Germany - and by then, they did have the long range bombers.

I think the truth is that the Soviets had a huge amount of US assistance, particularly in food, trucks and vital supplies, but without that, they could have eventually defeated the Nazis single-handed, but only with immensely more suffering and loss and more protracted battles. Maybe crossing the Oder in 1947 or something like that.
The U.S. Was rather isolationist. It was only Roosevelt and churchills friendship that created American support for ww2.

To expect the United States to nuke another country without a declaration of war, and one that would be defacto a large trading partner is a little too far to to believe.

Others factors to bear in mind were that Germany borrowed heavily from the U.S. In the thirties to re arm. I'm sensing the American government would've been keen to to get that moment back.

Americas distrust of Russia and communism was still well embedded in the thirties and forties. The age old adage of my enemies enemy is my friend would've allowed communism to be contained.
I've never been convinced that a straight
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
It depends how long they had to develop things. In our alternative history, it could have been 1948 or 8 before they nuked Germany - and by then, they did have the long range bombers.

I think the truth is that the Soviets had a huge amount of US assistance, particularly in food, trucks and vital supplies, but without that, they could have eventually defeated the Nazis single-handed, but only with immensely more suffering and loss and more protracted battles. Maybe crossing the Oder in 1947 or something like that.
The U.S. Was rather isolationist. It was only Roosevelt and churchills friendship that created American support for ww2.

To expect the United States to nuke another country without a declaration of war, and one that would be defacto a large trading partner is a little too far to to believe.

Others factors to bear in mind were that Germany borrowed heavily from the U.S. In the thirties to re arm. I'm sensing the American government would've been keen to to get that moment back.

Americas distrust of Russia and communism was still well embedded in the thirties and forties. The age old adage of my enemies enemy is my friend would've allowed communism to be contained.
I've never been convinced that a straight Germany versus Russia would've resulted in a Russian Win.
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Arbolus
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(Original post by Howard)
I think that the Americans would still have nuked Japan and won the Pacific war but then negotiated peace with Germany.
I agree that's the most likely outcome. A German victory in Europe wouldn't affect the war in the Pacific much, because Germany and Japan never really cooperated in anything. And it's unlikely Germany would have launched any major attack on mainland North America for the same reason that America would then be unlikely to launch any attack on Europe - the material and logistic challenges of moving enough troops and supplies across the ocean to begin an invasion would be immense.
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Thomas2
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(Original post by Arbolus)
I agree that's the most likely outcome. A German victory in Europe wouldn't affect the war in the Pacific much, because Germany and Japan never really cooperated in anything. And it's unlikely Germany would have launched any major attack on mainland North America for the same reason that America would then be unlikely to launch any attack on Europe - the material and logistic challenges of moving enough troops and supplies across the ocean to begin an invasion would be immense.
Britain did it in Canada.
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Thomas2
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
I guess it depends at what precise point our alternative history starts. If Japan had never attacked the US, the US would probably not have declared war on Germany in the absence of a reverse declaration for a long time. However, the German raids on US shipping started before Pearl Harbor, so there were already growing reasons for the US to be non-neutral as regards Britain, not to mention all the cultural and business ties. It's hard to come up with a history where the US does not get involved against the Nazis, in my opinion, although Robert Harris's nuclear stalemate between the Europe-ruling Nazis and the Western Hemisphere-bound US in 'Fatherland' is the most plausible one I've read. I haven't read Boris's scribblings, I don't like to send him money. :teehee:
I'm afraid I succumbed - it's quite a good read.

Our alternative history starts with Lord Halifax replacing Chamberlain as PM in 1940 and doing a grubby deal with Hitler after the fall of France.
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username1738683
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Would the US have ever attempted to invade Europe had Hitler conquered the Soviets? That would have most probably been beyond their reach even with British support, it was the attrition in the east that made the west vulnerable.

Another interesting thought is whether they would have dropped a nuke on Germany, even as a message to the Soviets.
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