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Why we think we hate america. watch

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    (Original post by Speciez99)
    ah well we might end up just disagreeing in the end, thank you for debating this with me, i will give you postive rep for your contributions when i can
    Thanks to you as well. I'll give you rep as well, even at the risk to be seen to be sicking each other's duck. [N.B. I hate censorship, but I have been reprimanded before on this forum for using "rude" language; hence the self-censorship.]

    I won't go into the details of your post, as we have gotten to a point where attacking each others' positions would lead ad absurdum. So, this post is meant to draw my conclusion to this discussion.

    You've probably got a point in that in some cases the US have pushed their self-interest to the point where they actually harmed other countries by pretending to help them (you gave the example of Indonesia here, which I don't know anthing about).

    It is also true that is hypocritical for the US to overthrow democratically elected governments. I think however, that this tells more about democracy than about the US. The democracy is far from perfect, and hence in the real world, there are situations where it cannot be respected.
    The Cold War was not primarily about defending the democratic ideology. It was mainly about protecting the West, which called itself - to a large extent rightly - the "free world".
    Ironically, in the greater scheme of things, it was necessary to destroy local democracies in order to protect democracy on a larger scale. That was because communist neighbours where intolerable to the US's security.

    Nothing is clear cut, all black-and-white in politics. You always have to make compromises and for the noblest ideas to be realized, they often have to be mixed with impure elements. Often, it's either that or dropping it all.

    I agree however, that in some cases, US policy towards American countries that opted for socialist governments was not appropriate. The coup against Allende for instance, was probably not justified.

    American foreign policy may not always be very clean, but on the whole it is beneficial for the world. In comparison with "hyperpowers" of other times, the US look rather good. It's FP is certainly more moral than that of the Roman Empire or of Britain and France back in the days when they were strong.

    All in all, America has a positive influence on the world, although it's FP is far from flawless. I prefer to live in a world dominated by America than in a world dominated by Communist China, the USSR or Nazi Germany. I prefer to live in a world dominated by America than in the Roman Empire or in British or French colonies.

    America did not initially seek to become a superpower. Its FP was traditionally isolationist. But the 20th century, Europe's suicide and the rise of communism have forced it to occupy the place of leader of the free world and ultimately of sole global superpower. It has nowadays become rather happy to have such power, perhaps too happy.

    Power corrupts, however this corruption has remained within unprecedented limits in America's case. That is why I value America and it's position in the world and why I think it would be a catastrophe if America were to lose that position too drastically to another power like China for example.

    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    I'm concerned with the volume of comments about USA recently in quick succession. How many threads have there been already?

    A little OT but is Taiwan actually independent? I skimmed the papers some time ago and it said something with independence from China.
    Here's a simple version of what happened:

    In the early 20th century, China was ruled by the Kuomintang (nationalists) and Taiwan was occupied by Japan.

    After Japan's defeat in WW2 in 1945, Taiwan was handed to China (still ruled by the KMT)

    In 1946, there was a civil war between the CCP (communists) and the KMT for control of China.

    The CCP won in 1949, but the KMT retreated to Taiwan where they ruled throughout 70s and 80s.

    At some point Taiwan became a democracy, but the CCP are still in power in mainland China and beleive that Taiwan is just a renegade state.
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    (Original post by zizero)
    American foreign policy may not always be very clean, but on the whole it is beneficial for the world. In comparison with "hyperpowers" of other times, the US look rather good. It's FP is certainly more moral than that of the Roman Empire or of Britain and France back in the days when they were strong.

    All in all, America has a positive influence on the world, although it's FP is far from flawless. I prefer to live in a world dominated by America than in a world dominated by Communist China, the USSR or Nazi Germany. I prefer to live in a world dominated by America than in the Roman Empire or in British or French colonies.

    America did not initially seek to become a superpower. Its FP was traditionally isolationist. But the 20th century, Europe's suicide and the rise of communism have forced it to occupy the place of leader of the free world and ultimately of sole global superpower. It has nowadays become rather happy to have such power, perhaps too happy.

    Power corrupts, however this corruption has remained within unprecedented limits in America's case. That is why I value America and it's position in the world and why I think it would be a catastrophe if America were to lose that position too drastically to another power like China for example.
    haha i agree about the debating, examples aren't going to get us very far. I think it is a country with general values like democracy is the most powerful but there are still quite a few flaws in the system and i would personally like to see most capitalism and fp become more based on morals in the next century

    The US is alot more developed than the Brits/ French and Romans and i hope that it continues to become more ascute in its use of force, rather than more internentionist in more places.

    And as for the US being a reluctant super power i could argue that one as well but it probably deserves a seperate thread. All i will say is that Theodore Roosevelt was far from reluctant in his use of force.

    And on the last point, agreed.
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    (Original post by kriztinae)
    obviously avoiding the question yet again as you havent read it
    surprise surprise
    ive read a summary of the document, but the point is, you wish to claim bias when that is clearly subjective. your claim that the US is controlling the UN because of a decision you do not like or feel is unjustified, is not reasonable. reading the document in its entirety will not change that. my comment reflected its futility.
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    Not too sure on the toss up between Britain dominated or USA dominated TBH.
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    This is human nature to turn jealousy into hatred in order to magnify their slightness of personality.

    Have you ever serious;y questioned your hatred of American?
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    looks like i've come to the right place if we're debating USA issues here...
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    (Original post by *LoL*)
    This is human nature to turn jealousy into hatred in order to magnify their slightness of personality.

    Have you ever serious;y questioned your hatred of American?

    Have you ever seriously questioned your hatred of Japan?
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    (Original post by J.S.)
    Have you ever seriously questioned your hatred of Japan?
    once. but all my doubts crumpled in front of the enormous amount of undeniable facts
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    ive read a summary of the document, but the point is, you wish to claim bias when that is clearly subjective. your claim that the US is controlling the UN because of a decision you do not like or feel is unjustified, is not reasonable. reading the document in its entirety will not change that. my comment reflected its futility.
    no you couldnt have read a summary of it
    tell me one gain for the greek cypriot side under this plan and i assure you thers mre behind it all
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    (Original post by kriztinae)
    no you couldnt have read a summary of it
    tell me one gain for the greek cypriot side under this plan and i assure you thers mre behind it all
    this is not the point. if you wish to talk about the merits of the plan, do so. but concede that your argument in relation to a US-controlled UN is emphatically unsubstantiated, and brings into question your objectivity of assessment.
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    (Original post by canuck)
    I find it sad to be a canadain, moss canadians arent proud to be canadain, are polititians have no balls, they back down everytime and if the dont, america tarrifs canada more, killing our economy. America prevents canada from industrilizing itself, thus costing canadian jobs to the U.S.

    I think canada has the most to hate with america, and many canadians to dislike the U.S. but the number is falling, being absorbed is killing an patriotism we have left, pretty soon, pro american MP's will eliminate he Queen as head of state in canada. I wish Canada would strengthen itself with the U.K., but it will never happen if the U.K. remains too close with the U.S.

    although americans are generlly fat, rude, and gun hoe, they are the worlds super power, i guess we will have to learn to live with it!
    It's always surprising to see Canadians such as yourself having negative feelings toward the United States. Can you give me some examples of tariffs? How are we preventing Canada from industrializing itself?

    Canada is by far the largest trading partner of the United States, as the U.S.-Canadian relationship accounts for 20% of all U.S. international trade.

    The United States has a very large trade deficit (billions of dollars) with Canada
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    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    It's always surprising to see Canadians such as yourself having negative feelings toward the United States. Can you give me some examples of tariffs? How are we preventing Canada from industrializing itself?

    Canada is by far the largest trading partner of the United States, as the U.S.-Canadian relationship accounts for 20% of all U.S. international trade.

    The United States has a very large trade deficit (billions of dollars) with Canada
    lumber tariffs imposed by the US do effect Canadian industry, however as you point out, this genuine grievance was marred by some very surprising ignorance of the US-Canada trade relationship in general and more groundless anti-american moaning.
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    (Original post by canuck)
    Really, its just about being a world power, the smaller countries are intimidated thus resulting in hate. Britain, by todays standards, is a medium power. Thus with its close relationship with the U.S. it is considered a Nato pawn of america.

    I live in Canada, and ill tell you what its like living next to the worlds super power. Our nation is slowly being assimilated by american media, The U.S. get cheap raw material from canada, and it alos tarrifs it costing canadian companies, and eventually bankrupts them. 70% of companies in canada are american own. Canada is invaded my a million american tourists a year, exploiting are low dollar.

    I find it sad to be a canadain, moss canadians arent proud to be canadain, are polititians have no balls, they back down everytime and if the dont, america tarrifs canada more, killing our economy. America prevents canada from industrilizing itself, thus costing canadian jobs to the U.S.

    I think canada has the most to hate with america, and many canadians to dislike the U.S. but the number is falling, being absorbed is killing an patriotism we have left, pretty soon, pro american MP's will eliminate he Queen as head of state in canada. I wish Canada would strengthen itself with the U.K., but it will never happen if the U.K. remains too close with the U.S.

    although americans are generlly fat, rude, and gun hoe, they are the worlds super power, i guess we will have to learn to live with it!
    During my year in Canada, that's definetely the impression I got: there's not much differentiating the Canadians and the Americans any longer and it's pretty saddening (and I'm not even Canadian). When I made a comment to my housemate saying she wasn't American, she answered"Yea but we're the closest thing to them", almost proud about that fact. It's especially the young people, brought up on American TV and Movies and nothing else that seem the most affected. This might sound racist to some people but I don't think the attitude of most immigrants really helps Canadian national identity: all most of them care about is the standard of living and they couldn't give a crap who the primer minister was, what the name of the Canadian provinces are, or when Canada was formed. I found that was a real shame. I'm even sure some of them are wondering whether Canada is the 52nd state of the USA.

    I was there during the Queen's visit in 2002 and of course, what was on the political agenda and in all the newspapers was "When is that old hag going to stop sticking her ugly face on our bills?" I'm not very pro-monarchy but I don't see it as something that has to disappear to create a modern state: look at all the Scandinavian countries, Japan, the UK, great modern countries with much less to be ashamed of in their recent history than a lot of so called "democratic republics". Well I remember reading an article in MacLeans about what would happen if the Queen were no longer head of state. The guy just suggested "But we already have a consitution we can use, the US constitution". I only studied Canadian History for one semester and even I know that it's probably the most stupid comment ever written in a respectable magazine like MacLean's. Canada was built so that the provinces wouldn't become additional US states. Canadians fought battles against the Americans, and with the British they burnt down the White House. So adopting the US consitution would be like spitting on several centuries of Canadian history.

    Anyway, Canada is a pretty messed up country. Sorting out the Quebec problem still seems to be high-priority. Very few people realise that Quebec, despite being mainly French-speaking, is the most Canadian province (with Ontario) and played a huge role in the formation of Canada.

    Now almost everything Canadian is defined by the fact it's "not American", there's nothing else that characterizes it. Even the "I'm Canadian" Molson adverts, although they're a good laugh, are just based on the Americans.

    It's come to the point most people don't even know Pamela Anderson, Jim Carrey and Mike Myers are Canadian.

    However there are still some great Canadian artists keeping Canadian culture alive (while Avril Lavigne and Nickelback are killing it): The Tragically Hip, Sam Roberts, Rufus Wainwright, Ron Sexsmith, why not mention Jean Leloup that great French-Canadian singer.

    To be honest, I think the UK are partially responsible for this Americanisation of English-speaking Canada. While France has been making every possible effort to reestablish strong ties with French-speaking Canada, the disappearing British influence wouldn't be so bad if it weren't simply being replaced with US neo-colonialism.
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    Not too sure on the toss up between Britain dominated or USA dominated TBH.
    Well then, sorry to be harsh, you don't know much about Canadian history.
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    So adopting the US consitution would be like spitting on several centuries of Canadian history.
    THE constitution? or a constitution that funnily enough has alot in common with other consitutions?

    Anyway, Canada is a pretty messed up country.
    apart from its appallingly lax attitude to immigration and its responsibilites in regard to terrorism, it has a strong economy and possibly the highest standard of living in the world. not what id consider messed up even if it is a haven for terrorists.

    To be honest, I think the UK are partially responsible for this Americanisation of English-speaking Canada. While France has been making every possible effort to reestablish strong ties with French-speaking Canada, the disappearing British influence wouldn't be so bad if it weren't simply being replaced with US neo-colonialism.
    well i knew it would be the US and the UK and not actually the Canadian government.

    and neo-colonialism?
    shame, it was an other wise good post.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    THE constitution? or a constitution that funnily enough has alot in common with other consitutions?
    No, I'm sorry, you don't quite get it. He was suggesting adopting the US constitution and simply amending it, litteraly. For anyone who's studied Canadian history, that's unimaginable.

    apart from its appallingly lax attitude to immigration and its responsibilites in regard to terrorism, it has a strong economy and possibly the highest standard of living in the world. not what id consider messed up even if it is a haven for terrorists.
    It certainly is not lax, it's inconsistent. If you think you could get permanent residence in Canada then you're badly mistaken.

    Standard of living is high but not because of their financial resources, but thanks to their health care system, education... Canada has a much lower GDP/inhabitant than the US.
    well i knew it would be the US and the UK and not actually the Canadian government
    Dear, we're talking about cultural influence here not the government's policy.
    Another person who doesn't know how to distinguish a country from its government!
    The BBC launched its Canadian channel just last year.
    There are very few cultural offices for British-Canadian exchange, in the province of Quebec, they're non-existent.
    There's hardly any promotion of British movies/TV programs/books/music despite the fact that a lot of Canadians love British culture, are very receptive to it.

    and neo-colonialism?
    shame, it was an other wise good post.
    Well when you get 18-year old kids wondering around in their miserable suburban town in Alberta and they spend their lives thinking they're in a US teen movie, that's pretty sad... (comment made by a fellow Brit during our year in Canada)
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    It certainly is not lax, it's inconsistent. If you think you could get permanent residence in Canada then you're badly mistaken.
    perhaps you should have a word with the Canadian Immigration authorities who assessed my profile against their initial criteria and found that i would be successful in a claim for residence. indeed, a colleague has just received his clearance and will be moving there in the coming weeks..

    Standard of living is high but not because of their financial resources, but thanks to their health care system, education... Canada has a much lower GDP/inhabitant than the US.
    the economy is in good health. standard of living is high.

    Dear, we're talking about cultural influence here not the government's policy.
    Another person who doesn't know how to distinguish a country from its government!
    The BBC launched its Canadian channel just last year.
    There are very few cultural offices for British-Canadian exchange, in the province of Quebec, they're non-existent.
    There's hardly any promotion of British movies/TV programs/books/music despite the fact that a lot of Canadians love British culture, are very receptive to it.
    since when did culture determine social and immigration policy?

    Well when you get 18-year old kids wondering around in their miserable suburban town in Alberta and they spend their lives thinking they're in a US teen movie, that's pretty sad... (comment made by a fellow Brit during our year in Canada)
    colonialism?
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    perhaps you should have a word with the Canadian Immigration authorities who assessed my profile against their initial criteria and found that i would be successful in a claim for residence. indeed, a colleague has just received his clearance and will be moving there in the coming weeks..



    the economy is in good health. standard of living is high.



    since when did culture determine social and immigration policy?



    colonialism?
    A claim for residence takes at least a year and costs a certain amount of money. And it's not as easy as you think: being of British and French decent, having a university degree and having already lived in Canada for a year, I only get enough points to claim residence so I'm not sure how you would hope to get in that easily. If you don't have the points, you wait even longer and they spend ages looking at your dossier.

    Most of my initial post was about Cultural influence, that's it. I was giving an example of US cultural colonialism: when you go to South East Asian countries, you get these ******s doing weird shapes with their fingers, wearing some wanky shirt by some skateboard brand and saying "Hey **** waddup buddy ****! This is ****ing rad ****" with the most pathetic attempt at an American accent and almost thinking they look American. That's cultural colonialism at its best. Sadly it's the case in most countries these days
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    (Original post by SamTheMan)
    A claim for residence takes at least a year and costs a certain amount of money.

    And it's not as easy as you think: being of British and French decent, having a university degree and having already lived in Canada for a year, I only get enough points to claim residence so I'm not sure how you would hope to get in that easily. If you don't have the points, you wait even longer and they spend ages looking at your dossier.
    according to the Canadian Immigration authorities, i had sufficient points.

    Most of my initial post was about Cultural influence, that's it. I was giving an example of US cultural colonialism: when you go to South East Asian countries, you get these ******s doing weird shapes with their fingers, wearing some wanky shirt by some skateboard brand and saying "Hey **** waddup buddy ****! This is ****ing rad ****" with the most pathetic attempt at an American accent and almost thinking they look American. That's cultural colonialism at its best. Sadly it's the case in most countries these days
    oh cultural colonialism. not colonialism then.

    "Dear, we're talking about cultural influence here not the government's policy."

    oh...

    "This might sound racist to some people but I don't think the attitude of most immigrants really helps Canadian national identity: "

    "Sorting out the Quebec problem still seems to be high-priority."

    "was there during the Queen's visit in 2002 and of course, what was on the political agenda I'm not very pro-monarchy but I don't see it as something that has to disappear to create a modern state:"
 
 
 
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