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    Full political union with the EU means the end of the UK as an independent entity. Why are so many people so keen to see this happen? Is it because they don't really believe that the UK will be terminated or do they really want to end their own country?
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    Don't really follow the debate but here are some 'pros' to staying...

    -->Millions of jobs are linked to our EU membership

    As far back as the year 2000, it has been claimed that three million jobs rely directly on our membership of the European Union. The figure was even cited by Nick Clegg during his time as Deputy Prime Minister. (Though it doesn't state how many job losses there would be if we left..)

    -->Some of Britain's biggest trading partners are in the EU

    Some of Britain's largest trading partners - including France and Germany - are in the EU. The EU is the UK's main trading partner, worth more than £400bn a year, or 52% of the total trade in goods and services. Complete withdrawal from the EU would see trade barriers erected, with car exports to the EU, for example, facing a 15% tariff and imports a tariff of 10%.

    -->It's easier than ever for us to work and travel abroad

    Around 1.4 million British people live abroad in the EU, and having membership makes movement around the continent incredibly easy.

    That doesn't even begin to cover half of it so you'll probably need a second opinion from someone who does follow it closely..
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    Full political union with the EU means the end of the UK as an independent entity. Why are so many people so keen to see this happen? Is it because they don't really believe that the UK will be terminated or do they really want to end their own country?
    The UK already pools its sovereignty in the EU. The idea of political independence is a nonsense at the best of times, but we are constitutionally and legally tied to the EU and have been since the 1970s.

    So I really care that this process continues? No. I don't give a toss about the UK being an "independent entity", I am happy with things as they are and I believe the EU offers us numerous opportunities we would not otherwise have access to.

    As for "full political union", I have no idea what that's supposed to mean. The abolition of national parliaments? That's not going to happen.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    ... No. I don't give a toss about the UK being an "independent entity".....
    Is this the general consensus amongst pro-EU supporters? It would be interesting to know.
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    (Original post by Saleha09)
    Don't really follow the debate but here are some 'pros' to staying....
    The question was rather different, basically, are you happy with full political union with the EU and the end of the UK as an independent State?
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    The question was rather different, basically, are you happy with full political union with the EU and the end of the UK as an independent State?
    When the EU has legislative primacy over the British Parliament, in what sense are we politically independent now?
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    (Original post by L i b)
    When the EU has legislative primacy over the British Parliament, in what sense are we politically independent now?
    I agree entirely, the Treaties as amended by Lisbon are clear. Notice that the UK now has no foreign or defence policy outside the EU and NATO and must represent EU interests in its UN security council role. The big changes have occurred in the past year (since November 2014 when QMV occurred). The UK now has only 12% of the vote on the EU Council whereas before November 2014 it could stop any action with its veto.

    An "IN" vote in the referendum will signal to everyone that the UK accepts further union and all the potential competences of the EU will be expressed confidently, both in the UK and EU generally.

    But you are happy to see the UK simply fizzle out?
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    Full political union with the EU means the end of the UK as an independent entity. Why are so many people so keen to see this happen? Is it because they don't really believe that the UK will be terminated or do they really want to end their own country?
    Most people cannot stand the history of Britain. What is there to be proud of? Invading other nations, stealing vast quantities of wealth and making slaves out of those who have a darker skin tone?

    They aren't my British values so the Empire can go to hell for all I care.
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    (Original post by illegaltobepoor)
    They aren't my British values so the Empire can go to hell for all I care.
    Great answer, it was the school history curriculum. Labour played a blinder changing it. You could have been taught about Britain's role ending the slave trade and saving Europe from tyranny but instead they taught you the bad stuff. There is good and bad in all history in all countries.

    It is fascinating that this has left you with no love of your neighbours and no interest in supporting them in their current needs, preferring instead an EU that is largely dominated by a German/French/Austrian/Italian bloc that was gassing ethnic minorities to death in living memory. Fascinating. I wish I could control the school history curriculum!
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    In principal i actually have no issue with the UK becoming a state in a larger federation and indeed the current state of the world suggests that actually we are headed towards large blocks (a number of political and economic unions are planned across the globe) so in a sense i suspect it's inevitable that by 2100, the UK may not exist alone.

    That being said i consider the structure of the EU and Euro-zone to be a shambles and so don't wish further substantial integration albeit i'm not sold we should leave.

    If the US would abolish the second amendment among other things then i'd certainly consider becoming a US state.
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    I agree entirely, the Treaties as amended by Lisbon are clear.
    They were clear long before Lisbon.

    Notice that the UK now has no foreign or defence policy outside the EU and NATO and must represent EU interests in its UN security council role.
    I do not agree that is true. In the UN and other bodies where the UK is representing an EU position, it makes that clear. The EU has a common foreign policy only within certain limitations - and of course these position are, in general terms, unanimously agreed between all member-states.

    The big changes have occurred in the past year (since November 2014 when QMV occurred). The UK now has only 12% of the vote on the EU Council whereas before November 2014 it could stop any action with its veto.
    That's false. There are still plenty of core areas that require unanimity in the Council.

    But you are happy to see the UK simply fizzle out?
    The UK won't "fizzle out", the UK Government retains a clear and key role within a wider structure. The EU is a federation, but it is hardly a centralised one.

    Hell, even if it didn't - the England and Scotland haven't had any degree of sovereignty for over three centuries, and still manage to continue to exist in one way or another within the UK.

    As far as I see it, this is ridiculous hyperbole. Do you really, honestly believe that continuing to be a part of the EU will somehow make the UK disappear?
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    Full political union with the EU means the end of the UK as an independent entity. Why are so many people so keen to see this happen? Is it because they don't really believe that the UK will be terminated or do they really want to end their own country?
    The former.

    For me it's one or the other go full hog or be a sovereign nation.

    The half way house doesn't work in anyone's favour


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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    Great answer, it was the school history curriculum. Labour played a blinder changing it. You could have been taught about Britain's role ending the slave trade and saving Europe from tyranny but instead they taught you the bad stuff. There is good and bad in all history in all countries.

    It is fascinating that this has left you with no love of your neighbours and no interest in supporting them in their current needs, preferring instead an EU that is largely dominated by a German/French/Austrian/Italian bloc that was gassing ethnic minorities to death in living memory. Fascinating. I wish I could control the school history curriculum!
    Actually I wasn't taught in a cultural Marxist school. I'm around 15 years older than the standard person here. I look back all the way to the founding of the Magna Carta and how King John behaved and then I look to how we ethnic cleansing Northern Ireland where the British Army killed Catholics to make way for Protestant occupation.

    Its funny the last time England+Wales really experienced ethnic cleansing is when the Normans invaded. I find it fantastic that the Scots are defiant to this day. They pushed away the Romans and they gave the Normans hell.

    I have the benefit of being taught history in a Christian perspective. If anything my values are Irish & Scottish because they are the real inhabitants of these lands where our culture came from.

    We say that England is a Christian country right? Well Christianity started off in Scotland in the whole British isles and it worked its way southwards. It wasn't the other way round.

    I've never been a fan of Marx because cultural Marxism was made to eliminate Christianity in a long walk though the institutions but in some ways cultural Marxism has liberated people from blindly following monarchist & nationalist norms. In terms of the working class nationalism & the monarchy has lead to their downfall & death. WW1 & WW2 was a great example of that.

    When WW3 comes you can wave that British flag all you like. As for me I'll be in the mountains tending to the flock of people who value our nations religion and their love for Jesus Christ!
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    (Original post by illegaltobepoor)
    Actually I wasn't taught in a cultural Marxist school. I'm around 15 years older than the standard person here. I look back all the way to the founding of the Magna Carta and how King John behaved and then I look to how we ethnic cleansing Northern Ireland where the British Army killed Catholics to make way for Protestant occupation.

    Its funny the last time England+Wales really experienced ethnic cleansing is when the Normans invaded. I find it fantastic that the Scots are defiant to this day. They pushed away the Romans and they gave the Normans hell.

    I have the benefit of being taught history in a Christian perspective. If anything my values are Irish & Scottish because they are the real inhabitants of these lands where our culture came from.

    We say that England is a Christian country right? Well Christianity started off in Scotland in the whole British isles and it worked its way southwards. It wasn't the other way round.

    I've never been a fan of Marx because cultural Marxism was made to eliminate Christianity in a long walk though the institutions but in some ways cultural Marxism has liberated people from blindly following monarchist & nationalist norms. In terms of the working class nationalism & the monarchy has lead to their downfall & death. WW1 & WW2 was a great example of that.

    When WW3 comes you can wave that British flag all you like. As for me I'll be in the mountains tending to the flock of people who value our nations religion and their love for Jesus Christ!
    This country is a secular country you crackpot and has been for nearly half a millennium


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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    Full political union with the EU means the end of the UK as an independent entity. Why are so many people so keen to see this happen? Is it because they don't really believe that the UK will be terminated or do they really want to end their own country?
    You're misunderstanding the position of pro-Europeans.

    Being happy for the UK to be a member of the EU does not mean you seek or desire full political union within it.

    Not even the EU wants that.
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    (Original post by Saleha09)
    Don't really follow the debate but here are some 'pros' to staying...

    -->Millions of jobs are linked to our EU membership

    As far back as the year 2000, it has been claimed that three million jobs rely directly on our membership of the European Union. The figure was even cited by Nick Clegg during his time as Deputy Prime Minister. (Though it doesn't state how many job losses there would be if we left..)
    Name one. Name a single job that would disappear if the UK were to leave the EU. Apart from the European political gravy train, of course. I'm all for getting rid of that.


    (Original post by Saleha09)
    -->Some of Britain's biggest trading partners are in the EU

    Some of Britain's largest trading partners - including France and Germany - are in the EU. The EU is the UK's main trading partner, worth more than £400bn a year, or 52% of the total trade in goods and services. Complete withdrawal from the EU would see trade barriers erected, with car exports to the EU, for example, facing a 15% tariff and imports a tariff of 10%.
    And some of the UK's biggest trading partners are outside the EU. Norway and Switzerland seem to manage alright outside the EU. Those tariffs you quote are simply made up numbers designed to scare, passing off hypotheticals as fact. New trading arrangements could quite easily be set up. Leaving the EU would not suddenly mean the end of EU-UK trade.

    (Original post by Saleha09)
    -->It's easier than ever for us to work and travel abroad

    Around 1.4 million British people live abroad in the EU, and having membership makes movement around the continent incredibly easy.
    Except that you don't need to be a member of the EU to implement free movement. European Free Trade Association countries have signed the Schengen Agreement and they are outside the EU.

    I'm all for having a debate on this, I just wish it was done without such ignorant fallacies being given as gospel. For the record I'm not a UKIP supporter.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    If the US would abolish the second amendment among other things then i'd certainly consider becoming a US state.
    So you also are happy to see the UK terminated.
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    (Original post by Duncan2012)
    ....I'm all for having a debate on this, I just wish it was done without such ignorant fallacies being given as gospel. For the record I'm not a UKIP supporter.
    So do you want the UK to be an independent, free State?
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    (Original post by illegaltobepoor)
    ..When WW3 comes you can wave that British flag all you like. As for me I'll be in the mountains tending to the flock of people who value our nations religion and their love for Jesus Christ!
    Surely the real issues are whether we should have contributory (EU style) welfare or non-contributory (uk style); whether we should have a mega port to serve the EU decided by Brussels or decided by Westminster; whether the land in the UK can take 110m people or 70m decided in Westminster or Brussels etc. etc.

    So are you pro-EU because you wish the destruction of England and Wales due to historical race hatred?
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    So do you want the UK to be an independent, free State?
    In principle, yes. That is the status quo. It seemed to work reasonably well for 300-odd years. However I'm happy for it to be put to the British people to decide. The EU was never intended to be a political entity, and the British public have had no say over how it has developed.
 
 
 
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