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Meritocracy vs Positive Discrimination watch

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    i know equality of oppourtunity is theoretically better than equality of outcome, but with poorer education, more likelihood of imprisonment, less amenities, less networking opportunities and less structured households how do we expect BME to be represented in the work force if we don't positively discriminate at all
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    I agree. I've started to like positive discrimination tbh. As peculiar as it seems at first. The reality is that it is necessary for a better future.
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    Blatant self-interest right here guys. Move on.
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    Poorer education than who?
    Greater likelihood of imprisonment...which is irrelevant if you stay within the confines of the law
    less amenities, not quite sure what the relevance is here, the only vaguely relevant definition is ultimately down to you, if you want to be a **** you can't really blame society, at least not in the vast majority of cases
    less structured households, what do you even mean by this?

    And why is it that people insist on adding the B to BME/BEM? Are negroids somehow more important than all other "minorities"?
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    Positive discrimination is dumb as **** and should never be implemented.

    "Hurr durr I can't into educate"

    Work hard enough and you will get into oxbridge or other high tier universities, or get training in plumbing, building or metallurgy, there is nothing holding you back except if your parents are horrible people in which case would you suggest that we remove all children from their parents at an early age to make everyone equal? no, of course not.

    Equal opertunity lets the best rise to the top and the worst stay at the bottom where they belong.
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    (Original post by DIN-NARYU-FARORE)
    i know equality of oppourtunity is theoretically better than equality of outcome, but with poorer education, more likelihood of imprisonment, less amenities, less networking opportunities and less structured households how do we expect BME to be represented in the work force if we don't positively discriminate at all
    You say "less this, less that" for BME people, but none of those issues are specific to BME people. People aren't just a part of a race, they are individuals.

    Let's say, for example, that a greater proportion of black people have less than a certain level of qualification than white people, resulting in a lower proportional representation of black people in more highly qualified roles. Two people, a white person and a black person, go for the same role. Both fit the job requirements but the white candidate, in this particular instance, on merit, would be a better fit. How on Earth is it justified that the job goes black person based on some arbitrary notion of representing a race better? These people aren't part of a race but two people applying for a job, and discriminating based on the fact the one candidate is black and one is white is racism by definition, because an individual has been discriminated against based on their race.

    "Correcting" the representation of races in jobs fields with racial discrimination is not only bad on moral grounds, but it can also bad for the candidate that it helped. In practice, it can actually result in under-qualified (unsuitable) people in roles simply to meet a quote, and it also makes people wonder if the individual got the position based on merit or via positive discrimination, which can undermine BME people that achieved their positions on merit alone.
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    (Original post by DIN-NARYU-FARORE)
    i know equality of oppourtunity is theoretically better than equality of outcome, but with poorer education, more likelihood of imprisonment, less amenities, less networking opportunities and less structured households how do we expect BME to be represented in the work force if we don't positively discriminate at all
    Positive discrimination is discrimination end of story


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    (Original post by hektik)
    You say "less this, less that" for BME people, but none of those issues are specific to BME people. People aren't just a part of a race, they are individuals.

    Let's say, for example, that a greater proportion of black people have less than a certain level of qualification than white people, resulting in a lower proportional representation of black people in more highly qualified roles. Two people, a white person and a black person, go for the same role. Both fit the job requirements but the white candidate, in this particular instance, on merit, would be a better fit. How on Earth is it justified that the job goes black person based on some arbitrary notion of representing a race better? These people aren't part of a race but two people applying for a job, and discriminating based on the fact the one candidate is black and one is white is racism by definition, because an individual has been discriminated against based on their race.

    "Correcting" the representation of races in jobs fields with racial discrimination is not only bad on moral grounds, but it can also bad for the candidate that it helped. In practice, it can actually result in under-qualified (unsuitable) people in roles simply to meet a quote, and it also makes people wonder if the individual got the position based on merit or via positive discrimination, which can undermine BME people that achieved their positions on merit alone.
    im not talking about put an English grad black student over a maths white student for a job as an analyst. im talking about situations where the black student and white student have similar work experience backgrounds, the white candidate is slightly better, but you choose the black candidate in order to sort out this mess that the government has not helped. positive discrimination is an issue of public policy and should only arise in places where representation is seriously low and where the difference between the black and white candidate is trifling
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    (Original post by paul514)
    Positive discrimination is discrimination end of story


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    How do you expect crime to go down, social mobility to increase etc etc if you dont put the most disadvantaged in positions to sort out their life?
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    (Original post by DIN-NARYU-FARORE)
    How do you expect crime to go down, social mobility to increase etc etc if you dont put the most disadvantaged in positions to sort out their life?
    Why do you expect everything to be given to you on a silver platter simply because you come from a group that, on average, doesn't do so well; are you simply incapable of working your way there and so want everybody else to put you there?
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Poorer education than who?
    Greater likelihood of imprisonment...which is irrelevant if you stay within the confines of the law
    less amenities, not quite sure what the relevance is here, the only vaguely relevant definition is ultimately down to you, if you want to be a **** you can't really blame society, at least not in the vast majority of cases
    less structured households, what do you even mean by this?

    And why is it that people insist on adding the B to BME/BEM? Are negroids somehow more important than all other "minorities"?
    if you do not think race is an important factor in how are society is formed and structured then you clearly benefit from institutional racism
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Why do you expect everything to be given to you on a silver platter simply because you come from a group that, on average, doesn't do so well; are you simply incapable of working your way there and so want everybody else to put you there?
    the reason BME do less well than their white counterparts is due to Britain's poor history with them. even now britain does well due to the position it has put other countries in/ positive discrimination helps alleviate some of the problems that are bound to occur when immigrants move to a foreign country, are faced with institutional racism and a higher-than-need be punitive justice system. it cannot be ignored; non-whites are systematically treated worse and it's not fair

    do you want true integration or do you want another london riots/brixton riots?
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    (Original post by DIN-NARYU-FARORE)
    the reason BME do less well than their white counterparts is due to Britain's poor history with them. even now britain does well due to the position it has put other countries in/ positive discrimination helps alleviate some of the problems that are bound to occur when immigrants move to a foreign country, are faced with institutional racism and a higher-than-need be punitive justice system. it cannot be ignored; non-whites are systematically treated worse and it's not fair

    do you want true integration or do you want another london riots/brixton riots?
    Shut up, you're an idiot. Not to mention a racist.

    How can you say that a white candidate with superior work experience/qualifications shouldn't be chosen over an inferior black candidate? You're a dirty racist.
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    (Original post by DIN-NARYU-FARORE)
    if you do not think race is an important factor in how are society is formed and structured then you clearly benefit from institutional racism

    Surely, if the negroids should be explictly listed, then all the others should be listed, so it should be NIM; Negroid, Indiochinese, and Mongoloid. Alternatively, you just stick with EM. Singling out the blacks is racist, and society is made up of individuals.

    May I also remind you that you're supposed to attack the argument, not the arguer.

    (Original post by DIN-NARYU-FARORE)
    the reason BME do less well than their white counterparts is due to Britain's poor history with them. even now britain does well due to the position it has put other countries in/ positive discrimination helps alleviate some of the problems that are bound to occur when immigrants move to a foreign country, are faced with institutional racism and a higher-than-need be punitive justice system. it cannot be ignored; non-whites are systematically treated worse and it's not fair

    do you want true integration or do you want another london riots/brixton riots?
    Right, so you believe there to be institutional racism, then surely the solution ot the problem is to deal with illegal discrimination, rather than introducing state mandated discrimination; then again, that doesn't give you a leg up, does it, so that must be the wrong solution. After all, state mandated discrimination compensates for your inadequacies.
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    (Original post by Tahret)
    Shut up, you're an idiot. Not to mention a racist.

    How can you say that a white candidate with superior work experience/qualifications shouldn't be chosen over an inferior black candidate? You're a dirty racist.
    This. Like I said positive discrimination is discrimination.

    Until people are judged on merit for a position only discrimination will exist.


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    (Original post by Tahret)
    Shut up, you're an idiot. Not to mention a racist.

    How can you say that a white candidate with superior work experience/qualifications shouldn't be chosen over an inferior black candidate? You're a dirty racist.
    cant be racist since people of my colour do not have the institutional power necessary to impose stereotypes on other people of colour. try again

    I just want society to be fixed mate. that means giving BMEs those opportunities and doorways into those jobs and places which allow them to help their communities and bring up BMEs.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)



    Right, so you believe there to be institutional racism, then surely the solution ot the problem is to deal with illegal discrimination, rather than introducing state mandated discrimination; then again, that doesn't give you a leg up, does it, so that must be the wrong solution. After all, state mandated discrimination compensates for your inadequacies.
    You cant deal with institutional discrimination simply by getting rid of illegal discrimination. BMEs are already excluded through things like indirect discrimination. The system has been built on racist notions , racist principles and patriarchy. There are no easy solutions, (and i challenge to you to put another proposition other than affirmative action) but at the end of the day the disenfranchisement of BMEs is unfair and we cant keep calling them scum when riots occur but give them no assistance to get to those top positions which could help BME societies and england in general
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    (Original post by DIN-NARYU-FARORE)
    cant be racist since people of my colour do not have the institutional power necessary to impose stereotypes on other people of colour. try again

    I just want society to be fixed mate. that means giving BMEs those opportunities and doorways into those jobs and places which allow them to help their communities and bring up BMEs.
    Sorry "m8" but we don't using Gender studies definitions of racism, we use the much more common layman term, your definition of racism is not recognized by the masses. Please tell me how modern non-whites are subjected to racism caused by slavery, which I'd like to remind you, was only EXPORTED from the slavers of Africa and the British empire was one of the first if not the first modern nation to make slavery illegal.

    Just because someone's great great grandfather was a slave doesn't mean he inherits the discrimination. Should we go to the Middle east and start demanding compensation because of all the European slaves they took? Should every historical wrong have to be compensated by modern people who had NOTHING to do with the original wrong?

    (Original post by DIN-NARYU-FARORE)
    You cant deal with institutional discrimination simply by getting rid of illegal discrimination. BMEs are already excluded through things like indirect discrimination. The system has been built on racist notions , racist principles and patriarchy. There are no easy solutions, (and i challenge to you to put another proposition other than affirmative action) but at the end of the day the disenfranchisement of BMEs is unfair and we cant keep calling them scum when riots occur but give them no assistance to get to those top positions which could help BME societies and england in general
    Hows free education until university, where it;'s still basically free anyway, that allows everyone who tried hard to get out of their situation.

    Also having rich black people won't help poor black people, just look at South Africa or Zimbabwe or any other Nation. Has Obama, by gaining presidency helped black people directly via him gaining power?
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    (Original post by TheNote)
    Sorry "m8" but we don't using Gender studies definitions of racism.
    even this ****ty language requires the existence of power+prejudice to be in place before racism can exist

    BMEs do not have that in this country

    ergo BMEs can't be racist to whites
 
 
 
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