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Islamophobia is not the same as antisemitism watch

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    I have often heard people imply that the reason antisemitism is seen as worse than Islamophobia is due to them nasty "Zionists".

    But there is a good reason why Islamophobia is not as bad as antisemitism. Islamophobia is prejudice against followers of Islam. It is hostility towards people due to their religious beliefs. Thus it is no different to hostility towards Christians, or in fact hostility towards anyone because of their ideological beliefs. It's not different to disliking someone for being socialist, conservative, libertarian, feminist, whatever...

    Antisemitism, on the other hand, is racist bigotry. Jews are not only a religious group, but a race. Thinking that Jews are inferior, that they are greedy, that they are elitist; these are all racist views.

    Racism is worse than bigotry against people for the opinions they have. An ethnic Jew can't stop being a Jew, nor does his race speak for him or tell you anything about his personality. On the other hand, A Muslim may leave the faith and no longer consider himself a Muslim, and your ideological beliefs most certainly do tell you something about your character, especially when they are as big a part of your life as a religion is to religious people. One could feel that Islam is repulsive, and then go on to conclude that anyone who follows the religion must be of such a contrary mind to oneself that one would find them very dislikable. This would be an ignorant view in my opinion, as the world really isn't so straight-forward. But I hardly think it is comparable to racism.
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    Islam may not be a race, but considering the vitriolic way in which even some of TSR's more 'liberal' members talk about Muslims, am I really supposed to believe that Islamophobes don't hold prejudiced views against anyone they see who happens to 'look Muslim' racially?
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    Islam may not be a race, but considering the vitriolic way in which even some of TSR's more 'liberal' members talk about Muslims, am I really supposed to believe that Islamophobes don't hold prejudiced views against anyone they see who happens to 'look Muslim' racially?
    I don't see a lot of posters making blanket prejudiced statements about Muslims as people, unless they are trolling. Almost all of the criticism is directed at the ideology of Islam.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    Islam may not be a race, but considering the vitriolic way in which even some of TSR's more 'liberal' members talk about Muslims, am I really supposed to believe that Islamophobes don't hold prejudiced views against anyone they see who happens to 'look Muslim' racially?
    How does someone "look Muslim"? If they're dark skinned they could be hindus, sikhs, christians, or anything. I think many apologists believe that Muslim just means something like "spiritual brown person". I think there are probably some Islamophobes who think that too, but those people are the genuine racists who use Islam as an excuse to be xenophobic, like most people in the EDL. Those people are generally working class men with little education who have got a lot of anger pent up in them that they want to expel. However, I don't think that's the case with most people on here. Most people on here are middle-class university students. They've looked into Islam, they've read some of the Qu'ran and the Hadiths, they've had contact with Muslims and seen the way Muslims act on here and elsewhere on the web, they may have researched opinion polls on Muslims around the world, they probably have a good idea of the kind of havoc that is wreaked on a daily basis in the name of Islam, and they've made an informed decision that Islam is not very pleasant. It's not like it's in anyone who goes to university's interests to just wake up one day and decide to be Islamophobic. Most unis are very PC and filled with very PC young people who love to fill their facebook feeds with posts about the horrors of Islamophobia. You're not doing yourself any favors if you stick your neck out and say "hang on a second, maybe this religion isn't peaceful". Most people on here have come to this conclusion after a good deal of consideration, and finally they've realised that actually, they don't want to defend this religion, and that it deserves heavy criticism. I know that was the case with me, I used to be very apologetic of Islam, always telling people that Islam is the "religion of peace" (until I found out that whole notion was invented by politicians after 9/11).

    So I really doubt that most of the so-called "Islamophobes" would look with disdain at any brown people they see. I think most people on here are well aware that many different races follow Islam, and that each of those races follow other religions too. With the except of the occasional troll, the reason people are Islamophobic on here is because they are informed.
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    Jews are not a race. That's just factually wrong.
    A Jew born in India and a Jew born in China are clearly not the same race are they?
    Yes lots of Jews come from similar areas, but Jews in and of themselves are not a race and it is wrong to call themselves as such.

    If anything, it's a passed down religion.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Jews are not a race. That's just factually wrong.
    Oh ok, thanks for the info.
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    A Jew born in India and a Jew born in China are clearly not the same race are they?
    The country you are born in is not the same thing as race. It's true that anyone can become Jewish, but there is also such a thing as Jews as an ethnicity. Antisemitism is discrimination against this ethnicity. That's why pictures of Jews with big noses and curly black hair are racist; because they're mocking them as an ethnicity.
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Yes lots of Jews come from similar areas, but Jews in and of themselves are not a race and it is wrong to call themselves as such.
    If anything, it's a passed down religion.
    From wikipedia: The Jews, also known as the Jewish people, are an ethnoreligious group
    From wikipedia: An ethnoreligious group (or ethno-religious group) is an ethnic group
    From wikipedia: A Muslim, sometimes spelled Moslem,[1] relates to a person who follows the religion of Islam

    Whether or not Jews can be scientifically regarded as a race, in the same way as black people can, is irrelevant. Racism has generally come to mean prejudice against a people for their ancestral ethnicity. By this I mean that antisemites dislike Jews even when they have left the religion, simply because they are ethnic Jews; because their surname is Jewish, because their family is Jewish, or because they look Jewish. When Hitler slaughtered the Jews, he didn't care about the actual beliefs of each individual. He was killing them due to their lineage. This is the same as racism. You are discriminating against people because of their creed.

    Islamophobes are not doing this. They are prejudiced against followers of an ideology, and if a Muslim decides to reject Islam, then he is no longer a Muslim in any sense, and Islamophobes will be on their side, like they are with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, for example.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Oh ok, thanks for the info.

    The country you are born in is not the same thing as race. It's true that anyone can become Jewish, but there is also such a thing as Jews as an ethnicity. Antisemitism is discrimination against this ethnicity. That's why pictures of Jews with big noses and curly black hair are racist; because they're mocking them as an ethnicity.

    From wikipedia: The Jews, also known as the Jewish people, are an ethnoreligious group
    From wikipedia: An ethnoreligious group (or ethno-religious group) is an ethnic group
    From wikipedia: A Muslim, sometimes spelled Moslem,[1] relates to a person who follows the religion of Islam

    Whether or not Jews can be scientifically regarded as a race, in the same way as black people can, is irrelevant. Racism has generally come to mean prejudice against a people for their ancestral ethnicity. By this I mean that antisemites dislike Jews even when they have left the religion, simply because they are ethnic Jews; because their surname is Jewish, because their family is Jewish, or because they look Jewish. When Hitler slaughtered the Jews, he didn't care about the actual beliefs of each individual. He was killing them due to their lineage. This is the same as racism. You are discriminating against people because of their creed.

    Islamophobes are not doing this. They are prejudiced against followers of an ideology, and if a Muslim decides to reject Islam, then he is no longer a Muslim in any sense, and Islamophobes will be on their side, like they are with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, for example.
    Judaism is not a race or an ethnicity. Yes lots of Jews come from similar places but Judaism in and of itself is neither a race nor an ethnicity.

    Think about it this way, your race or ethnicity is factual- it is part of who you are and can't change. You can however convert to Judaism - you can't convert your race/ ethnicity.

    I'm an English Jew my race is white.

    A Jew born in Nigeria is black - me and him/her are clearly not the same race.

    Race is things like white, black, Asian, Etc.
    Judaism is a religion, not a race, a religion. It may be a passed down religion but by the basic definitions of race and ethnicity, Judaism is not a race.


    In fact the only way you could argue they were would be to change the definition of the term 'race' to suit your own argument.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    Islam may not be a race, but considering the vitriolic way in which even some of TSR's more 'liberal' members talk about Muslims, am I really supposed to believe that Islamophobes don't hold prejudiced views against anyone they see who happens to 'look Muslim' racially?
    What is the "racial look" of a Muslim?

    It is ironic that some people who accuse others of subtle racism are actually displaying that trait themselves by assuming that all Muslims are Brown Foreigners.
    They are not. Muslims can be any colour, nationality and ethnicity.

    Someone who is prejudiced against someone because of their ethnicity is racist.
    Someone who criticises the ideology of Islam for being violent, oppressive and disciminatory, and subsequently criticises anyone who defends that ideology, is not.
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    What do you mean ethnic jews cant change, im pretty sure every religion has a right to break free from it if one decides to change
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Judaism is not a race or an ethnicity.
    Correct, Judaism is a religion.
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Yes lots of Jews come from similar places but Judaism in and of itself is neither a race nor an ethnicity.
    Correct, Judaism isn't a race, it's a religion. Jews are an ethnicity though, as the silver-locked Wikipedia article I linked to clearly states.
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Think about it this way, your race or ethnicity is factual- it is part of who you are and can't change. You can however convert to Judaism - you can't convert your race/ ethnicity.
    I think I made it pretty clear that there is a difference between an ethnic Jew and someone who is simply a religious Jew. Case in point: People who leave Judaism, but who have Jewish lineage, still consider themselves Jewish. People who leave Christianity do not still consider themselves Christians.
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I'm an English Jew my race is white.
    Do you follow Judaism or is this just based on ancestry? If it is the latter then my point is proven. Also, Jews may well be considered as white. Just in the same way slavs are a white ethnic group.
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Judaism is a religion, not a race, a religion. It may be a passed down religion but by the basic definitions of race and ethnicity, Judaism is not a race.
    Again, you're correct. Judaism is just the religion. I have never claimed that Judaism is a race. On the other hand, whether they are scientifically classified as a race or not, Jews most certainly exist as an ancestral ethnicity. Prejudism against someone based on their ancestral ethnicity is generally considered racism, and as I explained, is certainly just as bad. I explained this in my previous response:
    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Whether or not Jews can be scientifically regarded as a race, in the same way as black people can, is irrelevant. Racism has generally come to mean prejudice against a people for their ancestral ethnicity. By this I mean that antisemites dislike Jews even when they have left the religion, simply because they are ethnic Jews; because their surname is Jewish, because their family is Jewish, or because they look Jewish. When Hitler slaughtered the Jews, he didn't care about the actual beliefs of each individual. He was killing them due to their lineage. This is the same as racism. You are discriminating against people because of their creed.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    Islam may not be a race, but considering the vitriolic way in which even some of TSR's more 'liberal' members talk about Muslims, am I really supposed to believe that Islamophobes don't hold prejudiced views against anyone they see who happens to 'look Muslim' racially?
    Which liberal TSR members talk about Muslims (rather than about Islam as an ideology) in a 'vitriolic' way? Give some examples of things that have been said.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Whether or not Jews can be scientifically regarded as a race, in the same way as black people can, is irrelevant. Racism has generally come to mean prejudice against a people for their ancestral ethnicity. By this I mean that antisemites dislike Jews even when they have left the religion, simply because they are ethnic Jews; because their surname is Jewish, because their family is Jewish, or because they look Jewish. When Hitler slaughtered the Jews, he didn't care about the actual beliefs of each individual. He was killing them due to their lineage. This is the same as racism. You are discriminating against people because of their creed. :
    You make a lot of interesting points but still, Judaism can not be regarded as an 'ethnicity'.

    I don't see whether or not Jews can scientifically be regarded as a race as 'irrelevant' - it's very relevant because a 'race' or 'ethnicity' is a factual term, not a matter of opinion.

    And yes anti-semites may do all those things but that doesn't change the basic fact that Judaism is not an ethnicity. And yes Hitler may have slaughtered Jews because of their lineage but again that doesn't equate to Jews being an ethnicity. The fact that certain odious people have conflated the meaning does not make it correct.

    Lots of Jews come from the same place, many from Poland and many from the Middle East to name two. Their racial and ethnic features are not 'Jewish' but rather Polish and Middle Eastern. The stereotypical image of a Jew with a big nose is just that - a stereotype. It's the fact that Polish people in general have certain characteristics and as many Jews are from Poland - they have those same characteristics.

    You can look at a Jew from Poland, from Israel, from China, from Nigeria and from India and they are all completely different. They are not one race, nor one ethnicity. The thing that unites them is their religion.

    I do find this debate quite interesting and you do raise some interesting points but nonetheless I must disagree and argue the point that Judaism is a religion, just like Christianity, Islam and many others.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    You make a lot of interesting points but still, Judaism can not be regarded as an 'ethnicity'.

    I don't see whether or not Jews can scientifically be regarded as a race as 'irrelevant' - it's very relevant because a 'race' or 'ethnicity' is a factual term, not a matter of opinion.

    And yes anti-semites may do all those things but that doesn't change the basic fact that Judaism is not an ethnicity. And yes Hitler may have slaughtered Jews because of their lineage but again that doesn't equate to Jews being an ethnicity. The fact that certain odious people have conflated the meaning does not make it correct.

    Lots of Jews come from the same place, many from Poland and many from the Middle East to name two. Their racial and ethnic features are not 'Jewish' but rather Polish and Middle Eastern. The stereotypical image of a Jew with a big nose is just that - a stereotype. It's the fact that Polish people in general have certain characteristics and as many Jews are from Poland - they have those same characteristics.

    You can look at a Jew from Poland, from Israel, from China, from Nigeria and from India and they are all completely different. They are not one race, nor one ethnicity. The thing that unites them is their religion.

    I do find this debate quite interesting and you do raise some interesting points but nonetheless I must disagree and argue the point that Judaism is a religion, just like Christianity, Islam and many others.
    The fundamental difference is that Jews (whether they be ethnic, cultural, religious, whatever) have historically been persecuted simply for being Jews.
    Muslims - as a group - are being criticised for defending a violent, divisive and oppressive ideology. They are not persecuted.

    Therefore:
    Antisemitism = Unacceptable
    Islamophobia = Acceptable
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    (Original post by QE2)
    The fundamental difference is that Jews (whether they be ethnic, cultural, religious, whatever) have historically been persecuted simply for being Jews.
    Muslims - as a group - are being criticised for defending a violent, divisive and oppressive ideology. They are not persecuted.

    Therefore:
    Antisemitism = Unacceptable
    Islamophobia = Acceptable
    I disagree. Whilst Jews have certainly been criticised for merely being Jews. The same can be said of Muslims.

    Many if not most Muslims do not share or hold extremist ideologies prevalent in the more extreme elements of the religion yet they are treated as one of the same. Hence when Nick Griffin called for all Muslims to be deported, for the very fact they were Muslims - not just ones with extreme views.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I disagree. Whilst Jews have certainly been criticised for merely being Jews. The same can be said of Muslims.
    I said "persecuted". Jews have been persecuted for being Jewish. Muslims have only been criticised, not persecuted.

    Many if not most Muslims do not share or hold extremist ideologies prevalent in the more extreme elements of the religion
    This is a commonly held fallacy amongst apologists. Agreed that there are many Muslims who, when asked, would reject such concepts as slavery, domestic violence and the killing of opponents, but when the same people are asked if the Quran is the actual word of god, as relevant today in Europe as it was in 7th century Arabia, the vast majority will claim that it is.
    They hold extremist beliefs by default.
    It's like claiming to oppose racism but also saying that Mein Kampf is spot on.

    yet they are treated as one of the same. Hence when Nick Griffin called for all Muslims to be deported, for the very fact they were Muslims - not just ones with extreme views.
    Citing Nick Griffin is hardly illustrative of general social attitudes! You have just committed the same fallacy that you accuse others of making in the para above!

    And frankly, I do not consider a right-wing crackpot saying that extremist Muslims should be deported (I cant find any reference to him saying "all Muslims' ) to be persecution equivalent to being rounded up and killed - elderly, women and children.

    I find it rather distasteful when people essentialy attempt to compare the Holocaust to some people having their irrational beliefs challenged.
    Remember, it was similarly irrational belief that led to the Holocaust in the first place!
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    Hating someone based on their religion doesn't exactly make you any better for hating on someone because of their race, does it?

    On far right groups, they refer to Muslims as "rats" or "locusts" (See Nazi Germany and what they called Jews), as well as calling all Muslims extremists. That is not a "legitimate criticism of Islam" but rather a crass generalisation of millions of people.

    Britain First called Muslim protestors who were protesting against them "Extremist Muslims" You can't pick and choose who is extreme so arbitrarily.
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    I agree Islam is not a race and Jews can be seen as an ethnic group.

    But I'd rather not victimise anyone because both groups have done atrocious wrongs in the name of discrimination and hatred. So I don't get the purpose of this at all.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    I said "persecuted". Jews have been persecuted for being Jewish. Muslims have only been criticised, not persecuted.
    That's not true at all. Muslims have not been persecuted? Take a look at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims
    How about the persecution of Muslims in India?
    How about the Bosnian genocide in which 8000 muslim men and boys were ethnically cleanesed? That's just two examples. Muslims have been persecuted plenty of times throughout history and to suggest otherwise is historical ignorance.

    This is a commonly held fallacy amongst apologists. Agreed that there are many Muslims who, when asked, would reject such concepts as slavery, domestic violence and the killing of opponents, but when the same people are asked if the Quran is the actual word of god, as relevant today in Europe as it was in 7th century Arabia, the vast majority will claim that it is.
    They hold extremist beliefs by default.
    Same can be said of Jews and Christians who hold the Bible and Talmud to that extent.

    Citing Nick Griffin is hardly illustrative of general social attitudes! You have just committed the same fallacy that you accuse others of making in the para above!

    And frankly, I do not consider a right-wing crackpot saying that extremist Muslims should be deported (I cant find any reference to him saying "all Muslims' ) to be persecution equivalent to being rounded up and killed - elderly, women and children.
    What? You were claiming Muslims weren't attacked for being Muslims - i'm demonstrating where they have clearly been.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Whilst Jews have certainly been criticised for merely being Jews.
    How delicately - just criticized. You have nothing to do with Jewishness.
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    (Original post by admonit)
    How delicately - just criticized. You have nothing to do with Jewishness.
    I was using the term as the poster I was debating with used it first and bolded it. Take a look if you wish. I was responding to that and using it for both Muslims and Jews who have both been persecuted.
    Stop looking to draw an insult where there was clearly none intended.
    And yes I am Jewish so don't come at me telling me i'm not.
 
 
 
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