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Britain could face a crisis in the education system.

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Original post by nulli tertius
Disruptive behaviour in schools probably peaked sometime in the mid 1980s and has been in decline ever since.


But hasn't subsided back to an acceptable (i.e. near zero) level.
Original post by Joinedup


Anecdotally, I think really serious violence is more common now, but this is someone you wouldn't have fancied teaching Sense and Sensibility to.

http://murderpedia.org/female.C/c/carr-sharon.htm
Original post by nulli tertius
Disruptive behaviour in schools probably peaked sometime in the mid 1980s and has been in decline ever since.


I normally have the utmost respect for your views, but can't agree with this as someone who started teaching then and has just finished. I have been very fortunate in my own career, but many, many colleagues and friends have not been fortunate enough to see a decline in bad behaviour and there are many schools where behaviour is so bad that they cannot fill the vacant posts.
Original post by nulli tertius
Disruptive behaviour in schools probably peaked sometime in the mid 1980s and has been in decline ever since.


No it has actually increased. Reason why is because some parents are just too soft when they get the phone call home from the teacher, and if the parent doesn't do anything about it, the teacher is kinda powerless unless they bring the issue to higher authority e.g. headteacher, head of year etc...
Original post by Carnationlilyrose
I normally have the utmost respect for your views, but can't agree with this as someone who started teaching then and has just finished. I have been very fortunate in my own career, but many, many colleagues and friends have not been fortunate enough to see a decline in bad behaviour and there are many schools where behaviour is so bad that they cannot fill the vacant posts.


My daughter-in-law is a teacher. She underwent no training whatever in how to control a class, and little about the psychology of learning (both of which, I naively assumed, would be a large part of the training). This is why discipline is poor, and why the results of education are so poor.
Original post by Good bloke
My daughter-in-law is a teacher. She underwent no training whatever in how to control a class, and little about the psychology of learning (both of which, I naively assumed, would be a large part of the training). This is why discipline is poor, and why the results of education are so poor.

You have to learn it on the job, to some extent. Different things work for different people. I'm afraid that society has made it very hard for teachers by removing most of the sanctions and by apparently absolving parents of any responsibility for the behaviour of their children.
Would it not be better to encourage pupils to use the private education system in order to free up more money in the state education system, and at the same time, exposing more pupils to a more opulent standard of education?

I can imagine that there are many families out there who could afford private education but use state education instead, especially middle class families who might be able to pay a certain percentage of private fees.
to be honest some teachers really dont set the law in the first lesson and leave themselves wide open for disruption...some of the best teachers ive had were strict but knew how to joke around
Original post by Carnationlilyrose
I normally have the utmost respect for your views, but can't agree with this as someone who started teaching then and has just finished. I have been very fortunate in my own career, but many, many colleagues and friends have not been fortunate enough to see a decline in bad behaviour and there are many schools where behaviour is so bad that they cannot fill the vacant posts.


The government tried to do some research on this and failed to make any real progress. That isn't surprising. The objective data isn't available across time and memories fade.

My perception is that there are far fewer sink schools than there were in the 1970s and 1980s. Many of these were the results of school reorganisations often leaving unprepared teachers as grammar schools in tough areas started taking the intakes of their locality with fixed catchment areas and girls schools becoming mixed comps. There was also a toleration of poor behaviour. Ignoring Pink Floyd, if someone pitched Please Sir to a TV company today, Ofcom would have a fit of the vapours. Pitched battles (fists only, no weapons other than rocks), not between gangs but between schools now seem unheard of.

We may be looking at different things here; a decline in the general level of discipline across schools at the same time as a reduction in undisciplined schools.
Original post by nulli tertius
The government tried to do some research on this and failed to make any real progress. That isn't surprising. The objective data isn't available across time and memories fade.

My perception is that there are far fewer sink schools than there were in the 1970s and 1980s. Many of these were the results of school reorganisations often leaving unprepared teachers as grammar schools in tough areas started taking the intakes of their locality with fixed catchment areas and girls schools becoming mixed comps. There was also a toleration of poor behaviour. Ignoring Pink Floyd, if someone pitched Please Sir to a TV company today, Ofcom would have a fit of the vapours. Pitched battles (fists only, no weapons other than rocks), not between gangs but between schools now seem unheard of.

We may be looking at different things here; a decline in the general level of discipline across schools at the same time as a reduction in undisciplined schools.


Please Sir! My god, if that were the level of disruption in today's schools, it would be absolute heaven! I am quite sure that statistics can prove anything you want, but my own experience and that of my colleagues is that Nirvana is a long way off, and not getting any nearer. I suggest a flavour of what it is like now can be obtained from the Current PGCE student and NQT threads over in Education and Teaching. It makes chilling reading.
As a teacher, I totally agree that the education system is in crisis. I am disillusioned with teaching but I do it for the students and also to spread my passion for my subject. Education is now too routine and serious. We are professionals, yes, but when did that mean that we are no longer human? That part of the job really bothers me. There are so many things that happen in my lessons that I know I would get in big trouble for, yet I don't know why. It is like we aren't allowed to have a laugh with students. I mean ffs I teach A-Level; I work with 16-18 year olds. They are teenagers. A lot of staff forget what it's like to be that age. Their lessons should be enjoyable, and mine certainly are. The thing is, despite my unusual approach to teaching, their timed essays indicate to me that they are doing well, if not better, in my subject. So I will not change things.

Workload is an issue. An issue that the government seem to be ignoring and it's a joke. The pay is low. £21k starting salary before tax and student loan for working pretty much 7am to 11pm including weekends? What?

The solution in an ideal world is to reduce teachers' timetables, hence hire more teachers. Of course, that is idealistic because it would cost a lot of money. And they can't hire enough teachers as it is. They wonder why.

From a philosophical perspective I have a lot of issues with what we are teaching them. They will forget all subject content. It's not relevant. Education is not about subject knowledge, it is about learning from life. How many lessons did you have at school? Over 1000. How many do you remember? 2? 3? What do you remember about school? Experiences - positive or negative. Not knowledge. I see a large majority of my role as a teacher (and also my role as a personal tutor) to be guiding them during one of the best and most turbulent times of life, and also offering up advice and skills to dealing with life in general.
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Katty3
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Original post by Airfairy
As a teacher, I totally agree that the education system is in crisis. I am disillusioned with teaching but I do it for the students and also to spread my passion for my subject.

Education is now too routine and serious. We are professionals, yes, but when did that mean that we are no longer human? That part of the job really bothers me. There are so many things that happen in my lessons that I know I would get in big trouble for, yet I don't know why. It is like we aren't allowed to have a laugh with students. I mean ffs I teach A-Level; I work with 16-18 year olds. They are teenagers. A lot of staff forget what it's like to be that age. Their lessons should be enjoyable, and mine certainly are. The thing is, despite my unusual approach to teaching, their timed essays indicate to me that they are doing well, if not better, in my subject. So I will not change things.

Workload is an issue. An issue that the government seem to be ignoring and it's a joke. The pay is low. £21k starting salary before tax and student loan for working pretty much 7am to 11pm including weekends? What?

The solution in an ideal world is to reduce teachers' timetables, hence hire more teachers. Of course, that is idealistic because it would cost a lot of money. And they can't hire enough teachers as it is. They wonder why.

From a philosophical perspective I have a lot of issues with what we are teaching them. They will forget all subject content. It's not relevant. Education is not about subject knowledge, it is about learning from life. How many lessons did you have at school? Over 1000. How many do you remember? 2? 3? What do you remember about school? Experiences - positive or negative. Not knowledge. I see a large majority of my role as a teacher (and also my role as a personal tutor) to be guiding them during one of the best and most turbulent times of life, and also offering up advice and skills to dealing with life in general.


Exactly. We have a wonderful thing called the internet. Any general knowledge anyone needs can be found on there. Education should teach skills. Copying of a PowerPoint teaches nothing, yet that is how kids are taught.

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Original post by Airfairy
As a teacher, I totally agree that the education system is in crisis. I am disillusioned with teaching but I do it for the students and also to spread my passion for my subject. Education is now too routine and serious. We are professionals, yes, but when did that mean that we are no longer human? That part of the job really bothers me. There are so many things that happen in my lessons that I know I would get in big trouble for, yet I don't know why. It is like we aren't allowed to have a laugh with students. I mean ffs I teach A-Level; I work with 16-18 year olds. They are teenagers. A lot of staff forget what it's like to be that age. Their lessons should be enjoyable, and mine certainly are. The thing is, despite my unusual approach to teaching, their timed essays indicate to me that they are doing well, if not better, in my subject. So I will not change things.

Workload is an issue. An issue that the government seem to be ignoring and it's a joke. The pay is low. £21k starting salary before tax and student loan for working pretty much 7am to 11pm including weekends? What?

The solution in an ideal world is to reduce teachers' timetables, hence hire more teachers. Of course, that is idealistic because it would cost a lot of money. And they can't hire enough teachers as it is. They wonder why.

From a philosophical perspective I have a lot of issues with what we are teaching them. They will forget all subject content. It's not relevant. Education is not about subject knowledge, it is about learning from life. How many lessons did you have at school? Over 1000. How many do you remember? 2? 3? What do you remember about school? Experiences - positive or negative. Not knowledge. I see a large majority of my role as a teacher (and also my role as a personal tutor) to be guiding them during one of the best and most turbulent times of life, and also offering up advice and skills to dealing with life in general.


I know what it feels like. My Mom is also a teacher (11-16) and she says the salary is just not attractive to people. Look at Canada, they have too many teachers bevause their salary is more decent than here. Some Canadian teachers are coming here to teach because they can't teach there and here is better than their neighbour US, who I think is in a much worse situation than us...
For a long time I wanted to teach but the poor salary and workload horror stories have really put me off. If I do go into teaching, it will be abroad. It just isn't a viable long-term career in this country, not if you want a life outside of work.

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