The Student Room Group

Halton vs Cranwell

Hey guys,

thought i'd pick your brains about this and see if anyone else is in the same situation. i applied for oasc at the start of the year and didn't make it...the whole "come back in a year" letter. the main reason being that i need more military/leadership experience. so i could either hang around at home for the year and maybe join the TA, or I could apply for halton and effectively work my way up, applying again for a officer in a couple of years. i went for the latter because it suits my situation better. it's just that i had my selection interview today (which i passed) and the corporal warned me that i might find it hard at halton because i've gone to uni, have a fair bit of "life experience" and am that little bit older at 22. in fact he had one guy in my situation a few months back who dropped out of the initial training for those reasons. it did seem like he was trying to dissuade me from applying, but like i said, for me, it seems like the best option.

is there anyone out there who is in the same boat? or who has indeed started off as an aircraftsman/woman and then applied at a later date for officer and how did you find that?

cheers guys

:biggrin:

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We've discussed this several times before on TSR. My opinion, based on 17 years in the RAF and keeping a very close eye on the prospects on my airmen/NCA colleagues wrt to commissioning is that it is not a sensible prospect to join the ranks if you aspire to a commission.

Firstly, if you are genuinely officer material, then you will be like a fish out of water in the early days of your basic and professional training, and are likely to be extremely frustrated with the restrictions and limitations of your job. Like all the Armed Forces, the RAF has a strict hierarchy, and you simply cannot give an SAC the responsibilities of a Pilot Officer, just because they have the potential to manage them. Thus anyone who has officer capacity right now will find themselves severely under used and under challenged as an SAC.

Secondly, there is no real incentive for the RAF to commission you. You are filling a post which they want filling, and they have no particular problems with recruiting Officers from civvy street, so although they will do it, you have to sell yourself to the system and prove you can make it worth their while. Although they might be getting an Officer who is savvy and happy in the system, they are also going to have to recruit another airman to take your place.

Thirdly, the time component. There will always be someone who knows someone who was offered a commission within a year of getting out of professional training, but trust me, this is extremely rare (and I have my doubts it really happens at all, it does indicate a fairly grave failing in the recruiting process). Realistically you are looking at 5-6 years getting absolutely top scores and the necessary recommendations in the ranks before your profile will look at all suitable. Even then, you may well find yourself simply in a queue with senior Cpls and Sgts all in line ahead of you for probably a single figure number of slots per year. And all the time you are waiting, your performance has to remain first class.

'Come back in a year' is definitely preferable to joining the ranks and working your way to a commission if you truly believe you are officer material. However, I know that Stellafella (sp!) has a different view and there are a few Mikes and Annalou (?) who may have a different perspective to offer?
There have been , many in the same boat. Consider an Army Sgt transferee, maybe 28-30 years old, going through Halton taking 'encorougment' from a Cpl with parhaps far less experience than the 'recruit'. That's tricky, but it happens from time to time. It's nothing to worry about. Crack on, I'm sure you'll be fine.

Excuse spelling and punctuation, football's on.
Reply 3
threeportdrift
We've discussed this several times before on TSR. My opinion, based on 17 years in the RAF and keeping a very close eye on the prospects on my airmen/NCA colleagues wrt to commissioning is that it is not a sensible prospect to join the ranks if you aspire to a commission.

Firstly, if you are genuinely officer material, then you will be like a fish out of water in the early days of your basic and professional training, and are likely to be extremely frustrated with the restrictions and limitations of your job. Like all the Armed Forces, the RAF has a strict hierarchy, and you simply cannot give an SAC the responsibilities of a Pilot Officer, just because they have the potential to manage them. Thus anyone who has officer capacity right now will find themselves severely under used and under challenged as an SAC.

Secondly, there is no real incentive for the RAF to commission you. You are filling a post which they want filling, and they have no particular problems with recruiting Officers from civvy street, so although they will do it, you have to sell yourself to the system and prove you can make it worth their while. Although they might be getting an Officer who is savvy and happy in the system, they are also going to have to recruit another airman to take your place.

Thirdly, the time component. There will always be someone who knows someone who was offered a commission within a year of getting out of professional training, but trust me, this is extremely rare (and I have my doubts it really happens at all, it does indicate a fairly grave failing in the recruiting process). Realistically you are looking at 5-6 years getting absolutely top scores and the necessary recommendations in the ranks before your profile will look at all suitable. Even then, you may well find yourself simply in a queue with senior Cpls and Sgts all in line ahead of you for probably a single figure number of slots per year. And all the time you are waiting, your performance has to remain first class.

'Come back in a year' is definitely preferable to joining the ranks and working your way to a commission if you truly believe you are officer material. However, I know that Stellafella (sp!) has a different view and there are a few Mikes and Annalou (?) who may have a different perspective to offer?


I have to agree with most of what three says. If you want a commission, go for it from the start. I regret not doing so. As three says, as a SAC you cannot be given the same amount of responsibility as an officer. The chain of command will not let you do so. Trust me, this is very frustrating! I thrive responsibility, and as an airman/airwomen the earliest you are going to get any real form of it is as a cpl. Realistically that is going to take you perhaps 6/7 years to get to.

I don't necessarily agree with the timings three has given though. I have been in the RAF 3 years in July, and start IOT in June. I started the application process for commissioning in August last year with one annual assessment to my name. There are people that have been in a lot longer, with great assessments that have failed OASC. What I'm trying to get at is that you don't necessarily need 5-6 years worth of top scores and experience. Cpl and Sgts aren't necessarily in a queue above you. It is a level playing field at OASC, whether an SAC or a FS. If anything they expect more of you as a FS than as a SAC, the same as they expect more of you as a SAC compared to someone from civvy street.

So yes it can be done, but no I don't recommend it. There really aren't that many benefits to been in the ranks beforehand. It just slows the process down, and delays what you really actually want to achieve. If you have the potential in the first place then my advice is to use it.
deleted
Reply 5
Hi angela84, i am in exactly the same boat as you, oasc failure and long time dreamer. I have to say, my dad was in the RAF, entering as an aircraftsman and working his way up, he said it was very hard for aircraftsmen in general to work their way up which I have found to be true as was said by my own Ftl Lt who had worked his way up and by serveral others. I had a similar recruiting experience with my Cpl who took over, he wanted me to re-try for officer and said I would be away from home & probably wouldnt enjoy it etc. In the end I decided to go for it, however I recall at OASC there were a few people who were already in the RAF and were given an extra grilling during the interview stage.

I think Mike is a good example of how the mold can be broken and he should be appluaded for this.

St3llafella
Reply 6
I think at this stage you'd be crazy to go straight into the ranks in order to eventually get a commission. It will take you a whole lot longer than a year to get one by joining as an airman/woman. If you really want to a) be an officer and b) want to be in the RAF, why not spend the next year gaining military experience/leadership in civvy street. There's plenty of ways you could do it, such as being a CI with the ATC. I'm sure the guys on here could name loads of other things you could also do.

Try OASC again in a year. You may be successful, you may not. If not, then you could consider joining as an airman/woman with a view to eventually getting a commission. At least that way you know that you will get another shot at OASC for sure, whereas like TPD says, it's much harder to do from within.

As for being at Halton with your age and experience, I'm 27 and married with 2 degrees and a whole raft of life experience and responsibility. It was quite tough being at Halton and sharing a room with 6 guys who were 20 and under, but after a couple of weeks I got used to it. It certainly improves your tolerance. The DS were pretty understanding though and never gave me a hard time...in fact they were pretty fair to all of the older guys. One girl was 28 and she loved Halton.

If you have the right frame of mind, Halton is a breeze. It's only tough if you play mind games or give in too easily. Either way, I wouldn't go for it just yet. It's only 12 months...probably less than that for you now?! By the time you eventually got to Halton, those 12 months would be almost up anyway. Use the next year wisely and go to OASC again as a civvy.
Reply 7
sage advice romper
Seriously, don't do it without being certain that you could see out your contract in the ranks, leave the RAF and get into the career you want to, without regrets. There is absolutely no guarantee of a commission from the ranks, no matter how good you are, so you must be certain of these two things.

Firstly you must be certain that you could enjoy life with a low level of responsibility, not intellectually challenging (for a graduate) working in teams with and under people with far less educational experience than you, for a lower income than you have the potential to earn, for as long as your contract lasts.

Secondly, when you leave the Service, you must be confident that the experience gained from Airman service will enhance your CV in the manner you would wish as a graduate - personally I can't easily see how that would happen. Unless you stay in until you are a SNCO, SAC/Cpl experience will not enhance a graduate CV - very little leadership or responsibility, nothing managerial, nothing presentational/representative......

:eek: CONTENTIOUS COMMENT ALERT :eek: Unless your degree is from a third rate institution, in an obscure and pointless subject ie you are just one of New Labour's 'graduate for the sake of it' graduates, you could well be throwing your degree away. You almost certainly will be if you have a 'red-brick' degree in a traditional subject that employers value. /CCA

I would point out that, IIRC, Romper has gone into a very specialist role that requires a degree anyway, and gains accelerated promotion, so he is a 'special case'. I couldn't comment on how stell3fella and Captainplanet see themselves wrt my comments above!

Of course, there is nothing stopping you having a very happy and fulfilled life without striving to maximise your potential - but surely that's a decision you want to be making in your 40s with money behind you (:wink: ) rather than at the very start in your early 20s?
Reply 9
Thank you very much for the help guys, very sound advice from all. Have done a LOT of thinking and i think i had forgotten that oasc is only a year away and i've still got the option of halton (not that i'm planning on failing again!). I do think that I will feel more fulfilled as an officer and i'm more than willing to put a lot of work into this year to improve on the areas they told me to. i'd love to breeze through the fitness so that's definitely one area to work on and CI in the ATC sounds like a plan. I'm not near a TA centre so any other ideas on how to work on the military skills side of things?
Once again, thanks all for pointing out the pros and cons to both. i do think that seeing as i've been given a second chance, i should take it, and make damn sure that i make the most of it!

:biggrin:
Evening all.

Two questions folks.

Firstly, Romper, what are you going in as? That one was easy enough.

Secondly, consider the following situation. You apply for a branch that requires aptitude testing at OASC, and fail to meet the aptitude requirements for that branch, twice. So you then decide to go through RTS etc, and join the ranks. Would you be able to reapply later on in your career for the branch you originally wanted which required you passing the aptitude tests? (you know the one youve already failed twice, you dodo.:s-smilie: )

Not that this is the case with me, just something that crossed my mind when reading through this thread.
Yoof the Fifer
Evening all.

Two questions folks.

Firstly, Romper, what are you going in as? That one was easy enough.

Secondly, consider the following situation. You apply for a branch that requires aptitude testing at OASC, and fail to meet the aptitude requirements for that branch, twice. So you then decide to go through RTS etc, and join the ranks. Would you be able to reapply later on in your career for the branch you originally wanted which required you passing the aptitude tests? (you know the one youve already failed twice, you dodo.:s-smilie: )

Not that this is the case with me, just something that crossed my mind when reading through this thread.


testing at cranwell clearly states that you are only allowed 2 attempts in your whole life. usually people fail on different parts though id imagine, not all branches require you to pass the aptitude tests only: FB(p), FB (WSO), OSB (ATC), OSB (FC), OSB (INT), WSOp (EW/ACO), WSOp (CMN), WSOP (L) and AIA. Branches like Police, Admin do not require testing, however some of my group were still required to be tested at cranwell to improve the spectrum of results. Aptitude carries a hefty overall part of your score at Cranwell.

St3llafella.
I have read this thread with interest and firstly I do not want to get into the whole debate of which is better as both routes have their own merits. I noticed that there are alot of opinions and I'm not sure how many people can substantiate them but remember they are only opinions. You have been requested to come back in a year after you have gained some more 'life skills' I presume you have requested a debrief interview and asked what areas you can improve and how you could make yourself more competitive. I am surprised that a recruiter would intermate that you could or would be bored at Halton being a graduate. Frankly I disagree! there are plenty of individuals who join the ranks with degrees and thoroughly enjoy their time not to mention find stimulation. The commission process is not just about academics, they are looking for the well rounded individual. If you decided to hold off and attempt OASC again in a years time remember you are not guaranteed to be accepted. In the interim you could have gained a years military experience, worked within a team environment and learnt about the RAF lifestyle. Further you would have had a salary for a year!. Notwithstanding these comments, please believe the RAF has a responsibility for further development and actively encourage you to better yourself. As a serviceman you will have access to commissioning clubs, practice interviews and other coaching opportunities. These are not so readily available in civvy street. I am disappointed about the comments regarding individuals holding the rank of Cpl not being able to substantiate their CV as a graduate. The rank of NCO is an important one and you have responsibilities for your troups as well as having to answer to your superiors. You are a team leader and will be given tasks which you have to find solutions to and complete, delegation is seldom an option. Further you will take on a mentoring and supervisory role. I believe it is more important for you to explore what you want after all this is your career. Please don't have the non commissioned route undermined. It can serve a valuable purpose and give you a balanced approach to leadership and commission. Some of the best officers come through the ranks and the timescales which this can be achieved in is not cast in stone and will mostly be determined by your desire and ability to perservere. If you have any concerns please approach your AFCO again, ask to speak with the Office Manager or Officer Commanding. They will be able to give you a balanced response. I wish you all the best, I would not make these comments if I wasn'y qualified to make them. Remember I'm 'Here to help'
Reply 13
Yoof the Fifer
Evening all.

Two questions folks.

Firstly, Romper, what are you going in as? That one was easy enough.

Secondly, consider the following situation. You apply for a branch that requires aptitude testing at OASC, and fail to meet the aptitude requirements for that branch, twice. So you then decide to go through RTS etc, and join the ranks. Would you be able to reapply later on in your career for the branch you originally wanted which required you passing the aptitude tests? (you know the one youve already failed twice, you dodo.:s-smilie: )

Not that this is the case with me, just something that crossed my mind when reading through this thread.


Already 'in'....WSOp(L) :wink:
Reply 14
I couldn't agree more with you 'here to help' and many of those points you brought up were ones i used when the corporal was asking me about it. However, i think the main factor for myself, is that i'd be happier and feel better challenged in my career as an officer. it wasn't just the graduate issue, he said it was my whole application. i totally understand that next time at oasc i could still be rejected, and i think that point would be the best time to join the ranks, but i should still give my application its best shot.
it was my opinion at first that a "years" experience in the ranks would best suit me before trying for a commission again, however, it has been pointed out here, and from the afco and cranwell, that it takes far longer than a year to apply for oasc from the ranks, in general. so now, my thoughts are to make the most of the year in civvy street and give it my best next time.

i would say though, that if anyone else ends up in this position, the opposite could be true for them. i think that like everything in life, what suits one person, doesn't suit the next.

once again thanks for all your views and opinions, they have certainly attributed, in part, to a more informed decision on my behalf.
Here to help
I have read this thread with interest and firstly I do not want to get into the whole debate of which is better as both routes have their own merits. I noticed that there are alot of opinions and I'm not sure how many people can substantiate them but remember they are only opinions. You have been requested to come back in a year after you have gained some more 'life skills' I presume you have requested a debrief interview and asked what areas you can improve and how you could make yourself more competitive. I am surprised that a recruiter would intermate that you could or would be bored at Halton being a graduate. Frankly I disagree! there are plenty of individuals who join the ranks with degrees and thoroughly enjoy their time not to mention find stimulation. The commission process is not just about academics, they are looking for the well rounded individual. If you decided to hold off and attempt OASC again in a years time remember you are not guaranteed to be accepted. In the interim you could have gained a years military experience, worked within a team environment and learnt about the RAF lifestyle. Further you would have had a salary for a year!. Notwithstanding these comments, please believe the RAF has a responsibility for further development and actively encourage you to better yourself. As a serviceman you will have access to commissioning clubs, practice interviews and other coaching opportunities. These are not so readily available in civvy street. I am disappointed about the comments regarding individuals holding the rank of Cpl not being able to substantiate their CV as a graduate. The rank of NCO is an important one and you have responsibilities for your troups as well as having to answer to your superiors. You are a team leader and will be given tasks which you have to find solutions to and complete, delegation is seldom an option. Further you will take on a mentoring and supervisory role. I believe it is more important for you to explore what you want after all this is your career. Please don't have the non commissioned route undermined. It can serve a valuable purpose and give you a balanced approach to leadership and commission. Some of the best officers come through the ranks and the timescales which this can be achieved in is not cast in stone and will mostly be determined by your desire and ability to perservere. If you have any concerns please approach your AFCO again, ask to speak with the Office Manager or Officer Commanding. They will be able to give you a balanced response. I wish you all the best, I would not make these comments if I wasn'y qualified to make them. Remember I'm 'Here to help'


Couldn't agree more, old chap! Well said!
Reply 16
angela84
I couldn't agree more with you 'here to help' and many of those points you brought up were ones i used when the corporal was asking me about it. However, i think the main factor for myself, is that i'd be happier and feel better challenged in my career as an officer.

If that's the case then there's no discussion to be had; if you think you'd be happier as an officer, follow the guidance from OASC, and apply again in a year. If they tell you at some stage "never try again," then you can consider a career as an airman.

I would disagree quite intensely with anyone who suggests that joining as an airman will in some way prepare you better for OASC. Bearing in mind that, as you've mentioned, you may take longer than a year to even get out of Halton, I don't think many people would entertain your application for a commission while you're still enjoying trade training. Once you arrive at your first posting, I believe you'll be quite busy enough without worrying about studying from OASC; that's if you even have time to attend the odd Commissioning Club talk.

You will gain experience of the RAF, yes, but not of life as an RAF officer. It's irrelevant; my life and my experiences at work are very different to that of my 20 year old FOAs, for example.

OASC is good at its job. If you've been advised to broaden your horizons and return in a year, and you want a career as an officer, do exactly that. There's nothing to stop you earning through another job in the meantime. I still maintain that commissioning via service as an airman is not a sensible plan; yes, it can be done, yes some people have a great deal of success following it, but it's not a traditional route to commissioned service. For everyone who's done well from it, there are plenty more who were either unsuccessful, too busy/otherwise unable to even apply or give an application their full attention subsequently, or found that their experience wasn't particularly helpful.
yeah, im slightly worried about being one of the older cadets at RAF Halton. i have been told the nurses often are the oldest people there and are like mums and dad's to others. eek. x
i thought i might do this same situation really, personally i wanted to be a techie but thought why not try WSOp so im still getting wat i wanted anyway, i spoke to a few techies at oasc who were going for thier commision, and im quite up for it really,but im quite happy to stay as a noncommissioned squaddy, im in the raf and i love my job, all i wanted from life and iff iget commissioned wen i have done the time and i feel im up for it ill have a go!
Reply 19
Wzz
If that's the case then there's no discussion to be had; if you think you'd be happier as an officer, follow the guidance from OASC, and apply again in a year. If they tell you at some stage "never try again," then you can consider a career as an airman.

I would disagree quite intensely with anyone who suggests that joining as an airman will in some way prepare you better for OASC. Bearing in mind that, as you've mentioned, you may take longer than a year to even get out of Halton, I don't think many people would entertain your application for a commission while you're still enjoying trade training. Once you arrive at your first posting, I believe you'll be quite busy enough without worrying about studying from OASC; that's if you even have time to attend the odd Commissioning Club talk.

You will gain experience of the RAF, yes, but not of life as an RAF officer. It's irrelevant; my life and my experiences at work are very different to that of my 20 year old FOAs, for example.

OASC is good at its job. If you've been advised to broaden your horizons and return in a year, and you want a career as an officer, do exactly that. There's nothing to stop you earning through another job in the meantime. I still maintain that commissioning via service as an airman is not a sensible plan; yes, it can be done, yes some people have a great deal of success following it, but it's not a traditional route to commissioned service. For everyone who's done well from it, there are plenty more who were either unsuccessful, too busy/otherwise unable to even apply or give an application their full attention subsequently, or found that their experience wasn't particularly helpful.


The bloke that Sir Alan Massey took over from joined the Navy at 13, supposedly to be used as a weapon if they ran out of pedo's, and worked his way to Admirality (Fleet I think).... if that doesn't instill hope for NC's then nothing will!