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Why do you want to stay/leave the EU? watch

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    Why do you want to stay/leave the EU?

    Also state your nationality :P
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    I want the UK to stay in the EU so I can go to the continent and study a Masters Degree for free.

    British.
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    (Original post by Simes)
    I want the UK to stay in the EU so I can go to the continent and study a Masters Degree for free.

    British.
    Sound's fair!
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    I am generally Euroskeptic, but I don't trust David Cameron or the Conservatives on it. The Conservatives have had a poor record on the environment and I'm worried that they want to weaken important things like environmental regulations that come from the EU, and they might succeed if they renegotiate in those policy areas.

    I'd like to leave, as I see the EU in its current form as undemocratic, and I oppose in principle "ever closer union". But if leaving means risking environmental laws, then I'll tolerate the EU for now. Maybe we could leave when we have a PM and party in power that is somewhat trustworthy.
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    British, and my inclination is to stay in. I haven't heard a single 'leave' argument that's persuasive.
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    Political Ambassador
    China trade deal (so trade is main reason)- Leave.
    I'm Dutch/English
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    LEAVE
    British
    NO MORE ECONOMIC MIGRANTS
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    I don't particularly care either way.

    Migration, in England I don't live in an area where there are migrants or if there are then their numbers are small and off the good kind. In any case, I don't really mind EU migration as they are generally off the good kind as opposed to those coming from less desirable parts of the world.

    Trade, I haven't made my mind up on this issue as the alternatives of what would happen once an out is achieved have ever been made known and I highly doubt anyone actually knows for sure. Currently prefer the status quo for this very reason as not too keen on relocating a production plant especially now that the biggest buyers of the finished products are from Germany and Benelux. Having said that for this reason of uncertainty I will be holding back on investing or expanding this production plant.

    CAP/CFP, I'm sure what to think on this but I support that UK should control its own waters just like Norway and Iceland does. Better for the environment and fish stocks. CAP, am sure agriculture subsidies would continue on as per normal if anything simply for food security and national interest considerations. Would it save any money?? I highly doubt it.

    Democratic reasons? I view the EU as no more or less democratic than the House of Lords.
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    (Original post by RFowler)
    I am generally Euroskeptic, but I don't trust David Cameron or the Conservatives on it. The Conservatives have had a poor record on the environment and I'm worried that they want to weaken important things like environmental regulations that come from the EU, and they might succeed if they renegotiate in those policy areas.

    I'd like to leave, as I see the EU in its current form as undemocratic, and I oppose in principle "ever closer union". But if leaving means risking environmental laws, then I'll tolerate the EU for now. Maybe we could leave when we have a PM and party in power that is somewhat trustworthy.
    I don't understand this argument. How is the Parliament in Europe any less democratic than the one in Westminster?
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    (Original post by mojojojo101)
    I don't understand this argument. How is the Parliament in Europe any less democratic than the one in Westminster?
    Perhaps "democratic" was the wrong word.

    A better way to explain it would be adding yet more layers of bureaucracy, and that the EU parliament is pretty "distant", if you know what I mean. Sorry if I'm not explaining this very well, but it's the best wording I can come up with.

    Not only that, but you sometimes get laws passed that benefit other EU countries but which are problematic for Britain, because of the "one size fits all" way that EU policy tends to work - we are outnumbered by other countries.
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    (Original post by RFowler)
    Perhaps "democratic" was the wrong word.

    A better way to explain it would be adding yet more layers of bureaucracy, and that the EU parliament is pretty "distant", if you know what I mean. Sorry if I'm not explaining this very well, but it's the best wording I can come up with.

    Not only that, but you sometimes get laws passed that benefit other EU countries but which are problematic for Britain, because of the "one size fits all" way that EU policy tends to work - we are outnumbered by other countries.
    Distant seems to be a more appropriate word, however it still is not something that is significantly worse than Westminster.

    Similarly with the 'one size fits all policy' that could also be applied to the Westminster government. Take for example the re-balancing of the economy in the 80s/90 s away from heavy industry towards the financial services (being careful not to make a value judgment on it). There is a policy that disproportionately benefited the South East and punished the North of England and South Wales. In any parliamentary system there are going to times when you don't get what you want, calling something undemocratic because it doesn't do what YOU want is a false argument.

    In essence just don't think the distance argument holds any merit as there, to me at least, seems to be no logical conclusion to it until you get down to the level of the individual.at which point we have demolished every hierarchical power structure we are bound by (admittedly something I would like to see).
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    Leave: Due to lack of democracy, uncontrolled immigration pushing down wages, we have to pay tariffs to protect industries of other countries, CAP and it stopping us negotiating trade deals with other countries (TTIP is a mess).

    English
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    United1892

    Stay: I can see no upside to leaving and plenty to staying. Most of the arguments for leaving are outright falsehoods or ambiguous or pretend that Britain is something it patently isn't and won't be without a major culture change which I can't see how leaving the EU will precipitate- IE we have like all of Europe a declining birth rate. We also have to employ low skilled labour to do unwanted jobs- this will not change and the EU is not the reason.

    The EUs democratic deficit is a myth and generally comes from people who support an unelected House of Lords and a German head of state. Oh and think that Scotland should stay in the UK .

    Voter disengagement across all western countries is declining,

    In regards to the so called Norway option- Norway pays billions and gets no say.

    We CAN create our own trade deals- this is another stupid lie. We sell arms to all sorts of crappy non EU approved regimes for instance. In any case- how long would it take to re establish trade deals and at what cost- any idiot can see that China for example would have an advantage over the UK alone.

    As per immigration- again, there's nothing stopping the UK government getting British unemployed to work whilst remaining in the EU. Unless you want to massively subsidise low skill workers to a ridiculous extent which not even Corbyn would do! This also implies that UK governments needs the EU to import cheap labour .*

    * lastly the EU grants certain workers rights which is why quite a lot of the Eurosceptic big backers dislike it- a lot of thatche rites were appalled when the EU proposed a limit to bankers bonuses during the recession.

    Additionally staying in helps us tackle collectively big issues such as tax evasion, climate change and organised crime.

    Oh and I'm British.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    United1892

    Stay: I can see no upside to leaving and plenty to staying. Most of the arguments for leaving are outright falsehoods or ambiguous or pretend that Britain is something it patently isn't and won't be without a major culture change which I can't see how leaving the EU will precipitate- IE we have like all of Europe a declining birth rate. We also have to employ low skilled labour to do unwanted jobs- this will not change and the EU is not the reason.
    However much of the arguments I hear for not leaving relies on suggesting that all trade with the EU will evaporate if we left. Reports have even found that the trade benefits of the EU are "imaginary".

    The EUs democratic deficit is a myth and generally comes from people who support an unelected House of Lords and a German head of state. Oh and think that Scotland should stay in the UK .
    There is a democratic deficit within the EU. The Lawmakers are wholly unelected, and although I acknowledge it is humorous to hear a monarchist conservative complain about the EU's democracy whilst supporting the Queen and HoL, you should be aware that I support neither of those.

    Voter disengagement across all western countries is declining,
    True

    In regards to the so called Norway option- Norway pays billions and gets no say.
    True hence why I do not support this option

    We CAN create our own trade deals- this is another stupid lie. We sell arms to all sorts of crappy non EU approved regimes for instance. In any case- how long would it take to re establish trade deals and at what cost- any idiot can see that China for example would have an advantage over the UK alone.
    I think the assumption that we would be able to create trade deals is idiotic. We are the 5th biggest economy in terms of GDP and although our negotiating power would be less than that of the EU we would actually be involved in the drafting of these documents unlike TTIP which runs roughshod over our environment and gives corporations far too much power. I would point out Switzerland has acheived bilateral trade agreements in the past.

    As per immigration- again, there's nothing stopping the UK government getting British unemployed to work whilst remaining in the EU. Unless you want to massively subsidise low skill workers to a ridiculous extent which not even Corbyn would do! This also implies that UK governments needs the EU to import cheap labour .*
    My case is not that immigration causes unemployment for Brits, no that is simply idiotic however the great expansion of the labour market which this provides leads to wage supression.

    * lastly the EU grants certain workers rights which is why quite a lot of the Eurosceptic big backers dislike it- a lot of thatcherites were appalled when the EU proposed a limit to bankers bonuses during the recession.
    I am aware that the EU is often more progressive than our catastrophic government, however it is unlikely that massive worker protection directives would disappear even under the Conservatives.

    Additionally staying in helps us tackle collectively big issues such as tax evasion, climate change and organised crime.

    Oh and I'm British.
    On the climate change and organised crime I'd argue that these could be achieved outside of the EU. With tax evasion potentially it would become harder but currently the EU is a great facilitator for tax avoidance.
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    I'm passionately pro-EU. Asides from the irreplaceable advantages from trade and immigration which we receive as members of the EU, I believe that the greatest benefit of the EU is the individual opportunity it offers to all the peoples of Europe.

    In a different reality, British citizens are enslaved to the resources on their own isles. They have to have visas to travel to the mainland of the continent and to live, work or study there. But fortunately in this reality, British citizens can live, work and study anywhere across the continent thanks to the EU freedom of movement: we share the resources of 27 other nation states working together for the benefit of all. As a British citizen, I have the individual opportunity to study in Prague, work in Berlin or retire in Spain. The whole of the continent is at our feet. This individual opportunity which the EU offers fills me up with enthusiasm and joy and this excites me, and it's the biggest reason of them all as to why I want to stay in the European Union.

    (Original post by United1892)
    My case is not that immigration causes unemployment for Brits, no that is simply idiotic however the great expansion of the labour market which this provides leads to wage supression.
    A 2009 study by former Bank of England experts found that the effect that immigration into the UK has on native wages is "statistically-insignificant". In any case, it's lower-wage workers which depress wages (if anything) but the average EU immigrant earns £2,035 more per year than the average UK national.

    (Original post by United1892)
    We are the 5th biggest economy in terms of GDP and although our negotiating power would be less than that of the EU we would actually be involved in the drafting of these documents unlike TTIP which runs roughshod over our environment and gives corporations far too much power. I would point out Switzerland has acheived bilateral trade agreements in the past.
    Leaving the EU will not lead us powerless in forming trade deals of our own, but we would be approaching trade deals from a much weaker angle. By being represented on the WTO by the European Union, a country trades not just with the UK but also with 27 other nation states when it forms trade deals with us. This means that we can currently negotiate very powerful trade deals and agreements, being in a larger block. If we leave the EU, we have less to offer when we form these trade deals, so we may well negotiate trade deals which will be worse for British trade and British businesses. We would approach trade deals as the fifth-largest economy, not as the entire world's greatest trade block and marketplace, with an economy even larger than that of the US.

    The Confederation of British Industry echoes these worries and indeed said: "We would look to negotiate trade deals with the rest of the world if we left the EU, but we'd be doing so with a weaker hand and have to start from scratch with 50 countries. Who knows how long that would take and how much disruption British firms would face?".

    Nobody disputes that the UK could survive outside of the EU, but in terms of trade, the UK probably would struggle to thrive outside of it. Don't forget, too, that whilst we export up to 52% of our goods to the EU, the EU only exports 6.6% of its own goods to us: we would not get all of this 'special attention' as the fifth-largest economy in the world. Germany, France and Italy also have the fourth-, fifth- and eighth-largest economies in the world (respectively); damaging our diplomatic and economic relations with them would not be very smart.

    Switzerland's major banks have subsidiaries in London because Switzerland, despite its numerous bilateral agreements with the EU, has no access to its services market. If the UK were to follow in Switzerland's footsteps, most major UK banks would have to do the same in another European capital. Worst still, Switzerland still pays money to the EU budget (albeit not as much) and it has no representation in the EU, locking ourselves out of its democracy, however flawed the EU's democracy is.

    And anyway, usually the reason Eurosceptics give (and I wonder if you share it) for wanting 'trade independence' from the EU is so that we can connect with the rest of the world and trade with it more instead. But Germany, also in the EU, trades three times as much with China as the UK does. It's a lie to be told that the EU somehow limits us from trading with other countries any more than we do already, or somehow has control on how much we trade.
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    (Original post by United1892)
    However much of the arguments I hear for not leaving relies on suggesting that all trade with the EU will evaporate if we left. Reports have even found that the trade benefits of the EU are "imaginary".

    There is a democratic deficit within the EU. The Lawmakers are wholly unelected, and although I acknowledge it is humorous to hear a monarchist conservative complain about the EU's democracy whilst supporting the Queen and HoL, you should be aware that I support neither of those.

    True

    True hence why I do not support this option

    I think the assumption that we would be able to create trade deals is idiotic. We are the 5th biggest economy in terms of GDP and although our negotiating power would be less than that of the EU we would actually be involved in the drafting of these documents unlike TTIP which runs roughshod over our environment and gives corporations far too much power. I would point out Switzerland has acheived bilateral trade agreements in the past.

    My case is not that immigration causes unemployment for Brits, no that is simply idiotic however the great expansion of the labour market which this provides leads to wage supression.

    I am aware that the EU is often more progressive than our catastrophic government, however it is unlikely that massive worker protection directives would disappear even under the Conservatives.



    On the climate change and organised crime I'd argue that these could be achieved outside of the EU. With tax evasion potentially it would become harder but currently the EU is a great facilitator for tax avoidance.
    Eh no one on the EU side that I've read has said trade would dry up- simply we'd have to operate like Norway.

    I appreciate that bias is an issue for both sides, yet I'm surprised you'd find an article in the daily mail citing a think tank run by a certain Ian Duncan Smith credible.

    Are you saying want elected judges? In any case that wouldn't be the case regardless of EU membership. With the law aspect- you also realise we have to follow a whole swathe of international law, not least the UN.

    I am entirely unconvinced by the anti TTIP arguments- which would have you believe that France is about to sell off its assets to the USA. Even if they were so inclined, nobody in the EU is that stupid. As for Switzerland- this would be plausible if we were just London. We're not.

    For wages- no I disagree we need to enforce fair pay and have stronger worker rights. Being out of the EU makes it that much easier for exploitation. Additionally - the writer says we need to focus on innovation- I completely agree. The science and research community is pretty much United against brexit: http://scientistsforeu.uk

    How can climate change and international crime be tackled better by Britain on its own?

    There's areas for improvement on tax avoidance in the EU but it is still leagues ahead of the UK and is often understandably constrained by national governments.
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    (Original post by Alfissti)
    I don't particularly care either way.

    Migration, in England I don't live in an area where there are migrants or if there are then their numbers are small and off the good kind. In any case, I don't really mind EU migration as they are generally off the good kind as opposed to those coming from less desirable parts of the world.

    Trade, I haven't made my mind up on this issue as the alternatives of what would happen once an out is achieved have ever been made known and I highly doubt anyone actually knows for sure. Currently prefer the status quo for this very reason as not too keen on relocating a production plant especially now that the biggest buyers of the finished products are from Germany and Benelux. Having said that for this reason of uncertainty I will be holding back on investing or expanding this production plant.

    CAP/CFP, I'm sure what to think on this but I support that UK should control its own waters just like Norway and Iceland does. Better for the environment and fish stocks. CAP, am sure agriculture subsidies would continue on as per normal if anything simply for food security and national interest considerations. Would it save any money?? I highly doubt it.

    Democratic reasons? I view the EU as no more or less democratic than the House of Lords.
    You must be mad. Lots of undesirable migration from the EU! Some very poor countries, no skills, no education.

    Some what agree with your other points.
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    (Original post by Bill_Gates)
    You must be mad. Lots of undesirable migration from the EU! Some very poor countries, no skills, no education.

    Some what agree with your other points.
    The part on immigration doesn't particularly bother me as so far the pros outweigh the cons exponentially, the part on no skills or education are mostly temporary only, just a matter of time before they caught up.

    Either way many of those from poorer EU countries make for better workers than your dole-loving chavs.
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    stay- to travel and live there or work there if I want to
    British
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    I support staying in because I got customers in the EU and its easy to just send stuff to Germany or Portugal without filling in customs forms or importing stuff from the EU and getting stuck in customs and having to pay extra to get it released.

    I wish it was as easy to do business with the US as the EU.
 
 
 
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