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The idea that the bikini is just as much a form of oppression as the burqa is crap
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The difference is mostly that people choose to wear bikinis, although there's nothing stopping them from wearing a one-piece, or a scuba suit. Something that covers more of the body. It's not a sin to avoid wearing a bikini, and I don't know any girl whose parents would chastise her for feeling awkward about walking around a beach in a bikini.
People don't usually feel they have a choice in wearing the burqa. They're either afraid of committing a sin, or afraid of offending their parents. While it may not be legally forced on them in Britain, it is forced on them in some Islamic countries. The symbolism is hard to ignore.
People don't usually feel they have a choice in wearing the burqa. They're either afraid of committing a sin, or afraid of offending their parents. While it may not be legally forced on them in Britain, it is forced on them in some Islamic countries. The symbolism is hard to ignore.
Original post by PPF
1) Do you have any statistical evidence to illustrate the relationship between the veil and oppression?
I can use lists and numbers to make myself look clever too.
Fallacy no.1: You're implying that I need evidence to prove this is true. Clearly this isn't the case, evidence is hardly even relevant. It's like saying you need evidence to show that 1 + 1 = 2. You don't, you can argue with critical thinking, as I have done.
Fallacy no.2: The idea that I need statistics to back this up is reliant on the idea that someone must know they are oppressed before they can be considered to be. This is clearly not the case. Examples: the captives in the Plato's cave, or a child who is kept locked in the basement by his parents. I don't need their opinions of whether they are oppressed or not to tell me if they are oppressed. They may not know they are oppressed and refute any claims that they are, but regardless of this their situation is simply compliant with the definition of oppression. A child being locked in the basement by the parents is by definition being oppressed by the parents. Therefore I don't need evidence to prove that they are oppressed, I can prove it with critical thinking.
Original post by PPF
2) The burqa may be imposed in certain areas but not everywhere. It is seen as a mechanism to achieve a religious objective. You can disagree, as i do, with the objectives laid out by Islam but many people accept them..
2) The burqa may be imposed in certain areas but not everywhere. It is seen as a mechanism to achieve a religious objective. You can disagree, as i do, with the objectives laid out by Islam but many people accept them..
The veil that is now called the burqa originated from Byzantine and Assyrian cultures to help men keep women as their property. Women are not ordered to wear burqas in the Qu'ran, it just happened to be compliant with the misogynistic elements of the religion and so it became a part of many Islamic cultures. This is oppressive. The burqa is a symbol of oppression. A man may choose to wear shackles and chains just for a laugh, and in his choice he is not being oppressed, but the shackle and chains remains a symbol of oppression. However, the fact that Muslim women feel they should wear veils is a straightforward form of oppression. The burqa does not exist to appease Allah; as I have stated, in the Quran God does not order women to wear veils. The burqa is worn to appease a tradition which rests on the oppressive idea that women should be hidden from public sight. This is oppression.
Original post by PPF
3) Wearing a burqa is actually quite comfortable I would imagine as its just like a gown.
3) Wearing a burqa is actually quite comfortable I would imagine as its just like a gown.
The burqa is comfortable while swimming?
Original post by PPF
4) The burqa is imposed in the sense that its seen as a decree from god - in order to achieve a certain objective in the world which then translates into a successful afterlife.
4) The burqa is imposed in the sense that its seen as a decree from god - in order to achieve a certain objective in the world which then translates into a successful afterlife.
Allah never decrees that women should wear the burqa or chador. The burqa is a custom that originates from Byzantine and Assyrian times. Watch a couple of minutes of this: [video]https://youtu.be/3C0QwnvtMik?t=21m28s[/video]
Original post by PPF
The same applies to the five daily prayers. Why don't you mention that being oppressive? Muslims have to wake up everyday early morning to pray. Its obligatory for them. Isn't that oppressive?
The same applies to the five daily prayers. Why don't you mention that being oppressive? Muslims have to wake up everyday early morning to pray. Its obligatory for them. Isn't that oppressive?
In the sense that the Abrahamic religions were largely invented to control the masses, it is oppressive. On the other hand people pray for their own benefit: to get an eternal holiday in a magic land. Women don't wear the burqa for their own benefit, they wear because they are obliged to adhere to an oppressive custom.
Original post by PPF
Ultimately its up to the people to decide. If someone wants to wear it then you should have no objection, unless it imposes a threat to you.
Ultimately its up to the people to decide. If someone wants to wear it then you should have no objection, unless it imposes a threat to you.
When people start actually believing that liberal culture is as misogynistic as cultures where the wearing of the burqa is a custom, then it is a threat to my values.
If there were no men, would women still compete with each other to look their best? Would some women still bitch about the makeup, attire and health of other women? Would women suddenly turn into one big happy family?
Original post by TheArtofProtest
If there were no men, would women still compete with each other to look their best? Would some women still bitch about the makeup, attire and health of other women? Would women suddenly turn into one big happy family?
I don't think being an active part of the sexual selection process is an imposition. That is just natural life. Sexuality is a huge part of us and one of our main drives. However, having to close that down and hide such an integral part of you is most definitely unnatural and highly oppressing.
Original post by KingBradly
I don't think being an active part of the sexual selection process is an imposition. That is just natural life. Sexuality is a huge part of us and one of our main drives. However, having to close that down and hide such an integral part of you is most definitely unnatural and highly oppressing.
I can see that you are trying to say that women will still compete. That they will criticize each other over appearance, attire and well-being.
Given the fact that we have removed the motive for them doing so (i.e: natural selection and men), it seems rather strange that you insist that women will still engage in such activities, regardless of whether there are men or not.
Original post by TheArtofProtest
I can see that you are trying to say that women will still compete. That they will criticize each other over appearance, attire and well-being.
Given the fact that we have removed the motive for them doing so (i.e: natural selection and men), it seems rather strange that you insist that women will still engage in such activities, regardless of whether there are men or not.
Given the fact that we have removed the motive for them doing so (i.e: natural selection and men), it seems rather strange that you insist that women will still engage in such activities, regardless of whether there are men or not.
I'm not saying that. I'm saying that with men, women will of course compete in the process of sexual selection, but I'm saying this all part of being a human being. Our sexuality is an integral part of us, and it is not an imposition on us to pursue it. Having to hide away your sexuality however is entirely unnatural, and means repressing something very important.
If a woman want to cover her face that doesn't bother me
I agree, that comparison is absolutely ridiculous. Women who wear the burqa do so every day and whenever they're out. Whereas women don't go round wearing bikinis, they only do so on the beach so the comparison is just void.
Original post by KingBradly
I can use lists and numbers to make myself look clever too.
Fallacy no.1: You're implying that I need evidence to prove this is true. Clearly this isn't the case, evidence is hardly even relevant. It's like saying you need evidence to show that 1 + 1 = 2. You don't, you can argue with critical thinking, as I have done.
Fallacy no.2: The idea that I need statistics to back this up is reliant on the idea that someone must know they are oppressed before they can be considered to be. This is clearly not the case. Examples: the captives in the Plato's cave, or a child who is kept locked in the basement by his parents. I don't need their opinions of whether they are oppressed or not to tell me if they are oppressed. They may not know they are oppressed and refute any claims that they are, but regardless of this their situation is simply compliant with the definition of oppression. A child being locked in the basement by the parents is by definition being oppressed by the parents. Therefore I don't need evidence to prove that they are oppressed, I can prove it with critical thinking.
The veil that is now called the burqa originated from Byzantine and Assyrian cultures to help men keep women as their property. Women are not ordered to wear burqas in the Qu'ran, it just happened to be compliant with the misogynistic elements of the religion and so it became a part of many Islamic cultures. This is oppressive. The burqa is a symbol of oppression. A man may choose to wear shackles and chains just for a laugh, and in his choice he is not being oppressed, but the shackle and chains remains a symbol of oppression. However, the fact that Muslim women feel they should wear veils is a straightforward form of oppression. The burqa does not exist to appease Allah; as I have stated, in the Quran God does not order women to wear veils. The burqa is worn to appease a tradition which rests on the oppressive idea that women should be hidden from public sight. This is oppression.
The burqa is comfortable while swimming?
Allah never decrees that women should wear the burqa or chador. The burqa is a custom that originates from Byzantine and Assyrian times. Watch a couple of minutes of this: [video]https://youtu.be/3C0QwnvtMik?t=21m28s[/video]
In the sense that the Abrahamic religions were largely invented to control the masses, it is oppressive. On the other hand people pray for their own benefit: to get an eternal holiday in a magic land. Women don't wear the burqa for their own benefit, they wear because they are obliged to adhere to an oppressive custom.
When people start actually believing that liberal culture is as misogynistic as cultures where the wearing of the burqa is a custom, then it is a threat to my values.
Fallacy no.1: You're implying that I need evidence to prove this is true. Clearly this isn't the case, evidence is hardly even relevant. It's like saying you need evidence to show that 1 + 1 = 2. You don't, you can argue with critical thinking, as I have done.
Fallacy no.2: The idea that I need statistics to back this up is reliant on the idea that someone must know they are oppressed before they can be considered to be. This is clearly not the case. Examples: the captives in the Plato's cave, or a child who is kept locked in the basement by his parents. I don't need their opinions of whether they are oppressed or not to tell me if they are oppressed. They may not know they are oppressed and refute any claims that they are, but regardless of this their situation is simply compliant with the definition of oppression. A child being locked in the basement by the parents is by definition being oppressed by the parents. Therefore I don't need evidence to prove that they are oppressed, I can prove it with critical thinking.
The veil that is now called the burqa originated from Byzantine and Assyrian cultures to help men keep women as their property. Women are not ordered to wear burqas in the Qu'ran, it just happened to be compliant with the misogynistic elements of the religion and so it became a part of many Islamic cultures. This is oppressive. The burqa is a symbol of oppression. A man may choose to wear shackles and chains just for a laugh, and in his choice he is not being oppressed, but the shackle and chains remains a symbol of oppression. However, the fact that Muslim women feel they should wear veils is a straightforward form of oppression. The burqa does not exist to appease Allah; as I have stated, in the Quran God does not order women to wear veils. The burqa is worn to appease a tradition which rests on the oppressive idea that women should be hidden from public sight. This is oppression.
The burqa is comfortable while swimming?
Allah never decrees that women should wear the burqa or chador. The burqa is a custom that originates from Byzantine and Assyrian times. Watch a couple of minutes of this: [video]https://youtu.be/3C0QwnvtMik?t=21m28s[/video]
In the sense that the Abrahamic religions were largely invented to control the masses, it is oppressive. On the other hand people pray for their own benefit: to get an eternal holiday in a magic land. Women don't wear the burqa for their own benefit, they wear because they are obliged to adhere to an oppressive custom.
When people start actually believing that liberal culture is as misogynistic as cultures where the wearing of the burqa is a custom, then it is a threat to my values.
There's so much wrong in this post that I'm not even gonna bother replying.
Good Night.
Original post by PPF
There's so much wrong in this post that I'm not even gonna bother replying.
Good Night.
Good Night.
Cya
Original post by KingBradly
X
The bikini would be analogous to the burqa (and the niqab, chador and hijab) if Western women were forced to wear them when they were in a public place. Bikinis are an expression of sartorial preference, not the imposition of a visible manifestation of gender inequality that Muslim women are essentially forced to wear either by law or cultural pressure in Islamic countries.
There is no logical basis to compare the two; the reason many Muslims do compare them simply arises from their embarrassment and defensiveness about the backward state of their societies.
Original post by KingBradly
I'm not saying that. I'm saying that with men, women will of course compete in the process of sexual selection, but I'm saying this all part of being a human being. Our sexuality is an integral part of us, and it is not an imposition on us to pursue it. Having to hide away your sexuality however is entirely unnatural, and means repressing something very important.
I don't understand why you keep making references to sexual selection.
In this little scenario that you had posted earlier, there are no men so therefore, no sex is involved yet you still maintain that women will still scrutinize and criticize each other's appearance, attire and well-being.
Original post by KingBradly
So you want to wear a symbol of oppression? I mean it's up to you, I wouldn't stop you. Just seems very strange.
If someone WANTS to wear it, then it isn't a symbol of oppression, it's a symbol of suppression as it lowers the males gaze. I respect your OP but it being oppression or not is just a matter of opinion, unless women are FORCED to wear it, which they are in some areas.
I agree entirely, although I am too liberal to want it banned. I don't hang around in highly Muslim locales but it doesn't seem like the thing is very prevalent: I've seen it once or twice at most. There are no figures for it but the Guardian suggests a number in the thousands. If the burqa is just a confected anti-Islamic bogeyman which has very little relevance in the real world I see less need for banning it.
. If someone doesn't feel oppressed even if you think they are being oppressed and just don't know it, I honestly don't see what the big deal is.
Original post by PPF
There's so much wrong in this post that I'm not even gonna bother replying.
Good Night.
Good Night.
Strong debating skills.
Original post by Josb
Strong debating skills.
Cheers buddy
A. Bikini is something I'd wear when I'm really warm, swimming, sunbathing. It's a piece of clothing. Nothing more nothing less. A burqa is something a woman would wear as part of her religion. Nothing more, nothing less. People should stop overthinking so much
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